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Post by nuuumannn on Jan 2, 2022 21:40:52 GMT 12
HA-1109-K1L at the Spanish air force museum at Quatro Vientos.  HA-1109 K1L |
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Post by madmac on Jan 3, 2022 6:36:24 GMT 12
So it appears that the HA-1109 has a fence on the wing just outboard of the cannon that gets removed when people paint them in German markings. Anyone know what the handling effect is, I guess reduces asymmetric wing drop on stall.
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Post by nuuumannn on Jan 3, 2022 9:35:30 GMT 12
So it appears that the HA-1109 has a fence on the wing just outboard of the cannon that gets removed when people paint them in German markings. I don't think anyone's converted any HA-1109s to look like Bf 109s, but Buchons, the HA-1112s originally had wing fences. The HA-1109 differed from the Buchon in that it was powered by a Hispano Suiza upright V-12 engine. Fitting the Hisso was the first of the Spanish re-engined Bf 109s. From what I've read the impact of the stall is nullified by those leading edge slats, which are designed to pop out at low speeds. I've heard the Bf 109 in general, despite a high wing loading and relatively small wing area had relatively benign stall characteristics owing to the slats, although at steep angles of bank the slats tended to deploy asymmetrically, which was a problem for pilots attempting to get a bead on their foe in the throes of combat. From what I can gather, the wing fences were installed when Hispano Aviacion fitted the Hisso V-12 engine to the Bf 109G airframes because of the airflow from the prop emanating across the wings and the fact that the empennage was not modified in configuration to cater to the new nose with the fitting of an upright Vee engine. The Hisso's Swiss built prop rotated in the opposite direction to the Bf 109's VDM unit. When the Buchon was created by fitting the Merlin, the type originally had Rotol props, which rotated in the same direction as the Bf 109's Daimler Benz engines, but from what I'm aware the warbird Buchons use Hamilton Standard Hydromatic props. The wing fences were kept on the Merlin engined Buchons as the Bf 109 family is not fitted with a rudder trim at all. As far as I can see, reading the article linked to in the first post gives a good indication of handling the Buchon, but no mention of aerodynamic losses or gains from the removal of the wing fences. |
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Post by planecrazy on Jan 3, 2022 11:17:54 GMT 12
Maintaining the theme of aerodynamic forces noticed a difference on the vertical fins compared to the currently airworthy two and single seaters. Obvious the fin on the two seater is taller, the rudder is quite different as in the two seater is straight where as the single seater more traditional, angled section at top? Is the only reason for this the second canopy or perhaps a CG issue with more weight rearward? See below a couple of my cropped photos pointing this out. Interested to hear thoughts on why this difference was/is required? Liking that trim tab link also.  |
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Post by ZacYates on Jan 3, 2022 13:48:20 GMT 12
The two-seater's tail looks a lot like those on the later Bf109G and K variants, which I always presumed was a horsepower-related change as with Griffon Spitfires.
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Post by Mustang51 on Jan 4, 2022 1:13:45 GMT 12
But as Mr Grace says, it could do without the servo tab....
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Post by planecrazy on Jan 4, 2022 7:16:11 GMT 12
The two-seater's tail looks a lot like those on the later Bf109G and K variants, which I always presumed was a horsepower-related change as with Griffon Spitfires. Zac you nailed it well done, went back and re-read the article, quote below from paragraph fourteen. “The affectionately named “Twochon” was originally powered by a Hispano-Suiza as the HA-1110-K1L.” So the taller fin has nothing to do with the fact she is a two seater, assuming the K in the HA-1110-K1L determines her model type she was a 'K' variant. Begs another question wonder how the Hispano powered versions performed compared to the Merlin powered jobs? |
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Post by nuuumannn on Jan 4, 2022 9:40:04 GMT 12
Maintaining the theme of aerodynamic forces noticed a difference on the vertical fins compared to the currently airworthy two and single seaters. Obvious the fin on the two seater is taller, the rudder is quite different as in the two seater is straight where as the single seater more traditional, angled section at top? Is the only reason for this the second canopy or perhaps a CG issue with more weight rearward? See below a couple of my cropped photos pointing this out. Interested to hear thoughts on why this difference was/is required? Liking that trim tab link also. Nice spotting planecrazy. Yup, looks like Zac has pointed out the late style fin/rudder arrangement on the "Twochon" mentioned in the article already. That taller fin was fitted to the Kurfurst Bf 109 model and was fitted with a servo tab rather than a rudder trim tab. The article mentions it making the rudder too light and the author argues that perhaps it was unnecessary. The fitting of this larger fin was on this aircraft specifically as the Hispano two-seaters had the original Bf 109G fin/rudder arrangement. A quick scan on the internet found this piccie of a HA.1109 two-seater. i.pinimg.com/originals/94/05/ed/9405ed23d4c9ef05a807f14cc0d58074.jpgThe Buchon two-seater, of which this one had the Kurfurst fin/rudder arrangement. www.aviationcorner.net/public/photos/8/7/avc_00189487.jpgHere's a picture of the two-seater Buchon during filming of the movie with the enlarged fin. www.daveswarbirds.com/bob/pics/aircraft/109s/TM93B_two-seat_ME109_in_color.jpgFrom this good page with great colour images from filming: www.daveswarbirds.com/bob/109s.htm |
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Post by vultee43 on Jan 4, 2022 11:31:45 GMT 12
It didn't help Young Zac that in the Warbirds Over Wanaka 1992 videos G-BOML was referred to as an Me109J. But I agree: 109s is 109s and Buchons is Buchons! And I love Buchons!! Yup, I get it, but all I see is Messerschmitts. I guess it stems from the Battle of Britain movie and the fact that so much of the type's characteristics comes from the Bf 109 as I pointed out earlier. One thing that is readily apparent is that of the surviving Buchons around the world, there are more that are converted into or dressed to look like Bf 109s than there are examples configured as Buchons as the Spanish intended. I do like the blue colour scheme the Ejercito put on theirs. Definitely think the Ha 1109 looks better than the Merlin Buchon. Not a fan of the four blade prop either. I guess some derivatives can look better or worse for their attempts at improvement, like the great T6 / CAC16 debate (for the record distinctly different aircraft that share aesthetics and a centre section - the Wirraway being the obvious clear winner on all counts 😉). |
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Post by nuuumannn on Jan 4, 2022 11:38:45 GMT 12
Definitely think the Ha 1109 looks better than the Merlin Buchon. Not a fan of the four blade prop either. It's got a more businesslike front, hasn't it and it looks more like a Bf 109 despite the upright engine.  RAFM 112 |
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Post by vultee43 on Jan 4, 2022 11:41:10 GMT 12
Definitely think the Ha 1109 looks better than the Merlin Buchon. Not a fan of the four blade prop either. It's got a more businesslike front, hasn't it and it looks more like a Bf 109 despite the upright engine. RAFM 112 Be hard pressed to spot the difference at first glance. Looks more like the thoroughbred than the clunky Buchon truck. |
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Post by nuuumannn on Jan 4, 2022 11:55:01 GMT 12
Be hard pressed to spot the difference at first glance. Looks more like the thoroughbred than the clunky Buchon truck. Spot the difference.  Bf 109G-2 on which the Hispano Aviacion airframes were based (this is not a Buchon conversion but a restored Bf 109)....  DSC_0062 Buchon...  DSC_4006 Now compare that with what it was s'posed to be emulating... RAFM 112  |
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Post by planecrazy on Jan 4, 2022 13:08:14 GMT 12
Be hard pressed to spot the difference at first glance. Looks more like the thoroughbred than the clunky Buchon truck. Spot the difference.  Bf 109G-2 on which the Hispano Aviacion airframes were based (this is not a Buchon conversion but a restored Bf 109).... DSC_0062 Gee I feel like I was standing next to you when I got this pic.  RAFM 112 May have pushed you aside for this one!   |
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Post by nuuumannn on Jan 4, 2022 13:14:41 GMT 12
Gee I feel like I was standing next to you when I got this pic. May have pushed you aside for this one! Great stuff, planecrazy. While I was at Cosford I got permission to do walkarounds of some of the aircraft, including the Bf 109 and Defiant, so you would'a had to wait for me to get out of the bleeding way! At Hendon I was with the aircraft curator, whom I had worked with years earlier. I interviewed the director while I was there, as well as took the obligatory photos. Just noticed something minor, in my photo of the Emil the leading edge slat is open a bit, whereas in your photo it's closed... |
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Post by planecrazy on Jan 4, 2022 13:16:15 GMT 12
Sorry to say I now have another question, yes I know too many questions! The circular cover just behind the tail wheel, going to have a go at answering my questions. Thinking maybe some of the later versions had retractable tail wheels and on the Buchons they did away with this to reduce maintenance. The cover to stop the area behind the wheel fulling up with dirt and muck? |
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Post by nuuumannn on Jan 4, 2022 14:21:38 GMT 12
The Bf 109 was intended on a retractable tailwheel, but it was fixed in particular marks, like the early production B models, but in the Emil and Friedrich it was retractable, at least it states so in the manuals. In most marks of the Gustav it wasn't, which means Buchons didn't have the retractable tailwheels either. Around the tailwheel opening was a series of fasteners for the fitting of a covering, which is, I'm presuming what you are seeing fitted to the Buchon. This is the Australian War Memorial's G-6. Note the fastener holes around the opening.  DSC_5564 The covering installed on the Buchon. Correction, the cover was fitted to Bf 109s in military service.  Tailwheel opening cover |
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Post by Antonio on Jan 4, 2022 15:23:55 GMT 12
Note the difference in tyre pressures
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Post by Mustang51 on Jan 4, 2022 17:22:37 GMT 12
Well done Antonio....give that man a cigar !
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Post by ZacYates on Jan 4, 2022 19:48:30 GMT 12
(this is not a Buchon conversion but a restored Bf 109).... DSC_0062 Seems to me to be a particular G-2 with a rather storied history in both war and peace, although I daresay that machine deserves its own thread! |
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Post by planecrazy on Jan 4, 2022 19:56:35 GMT 12
(this is not a Buchon conversion but a restored Bf 109).... DSC_0062 Seems to me to be a particular G-2 with a rather storied history in both war and peace, although I daresay that machine deserves its own thread! Somewhere stashed away in a box in the roof I have a VHS tape on her restoration, you are correct Zac a great story with its fair share of ups and downs, the Gustav and Frederick are awesome machines  |
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