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Post by ErrolC on Oct 27, 2023 14:15:09 GMT 12
Far too early to jump to that conclusion I'd say - the new Govt will have to make some tough decisions to get the country out of the financial hole dug by the incompetent fish & chip shop worker and her cohort of buffoons. /quote] Can we just not make this sort of comment? I could respond by saying that competent politicians don't make up completely unrealistic tax revenue to pay for their policies. |
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Post by alanster on Oct 27, 2023 14:46:42 GMT 12
 Overall, the new government is good for defence if NZF & ACT get their way. National is the penny-pincher and will likely keep the status quo spending (which was still an uplift under Labour given all the once-in-a-generation purchases that had to be made). If spending is to increase to 2%, what kind of bang for Buck could the NZDF get? An extra frigate for the Navy? An earlier replacement for the Canterbury and an extra LHD? Doubt the airforce would get much more. Drones? Far too early to jump to that conclusion I'd say - the new Govt will have to make some tough decisions to get the country out of the financial hole dug by the incompetent fish & chip shop worker and her cohort of buffoons. No one would like to see NZ's defence spending to increase more than me but the recovery will take some time and hopefully within their 2nd or 3rd term they can get that percentage closer to 2%. Excuses already. The country isn’t in that big of a hole. Inflation is coming down, unemployment is at record lows, exports through all those new free trade deals will ramp up if we don’t have to rely on China for most of it. |
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Post by Antonio on Oct 27, 2023 17:50:40 GMT 12
Are the Chinese still producing our uniforms?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 27, 2023 18:26:30 GMT 12
If spending is to increase to 2%, what kind of bang for Buck could the NZDF get? An extra frigate for the Navy? Seriously, what would the point be in getting a third frigate? The Navy struggles to maintain enough crew for their two frigates and for their smaller vessels as it is. Buying a third frigate would be a colossal investment and would probably end up tied up in storage. I'd rather see more helicopters and P-8s purchased if a big outlay of money on expansion were to made, which it probably won't be. |
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Post by alanster on Oct 28, 2023 0:26:55 GMT 12
If spending is to increase to 2%, what kind of bang for Buck could the NZDF get? An extra frigate for the Navy? Seriously, what would the point be in getting a third frigate? The Navy struggles to maintain enough crew for their two frigates and for their smaller vessels as it is. Buying a third frigate would be a colossal investment and would probably end up tied up in storage. I'd rather see more helicopters and P-8s purchased if a big outlay of money on expansion were to made, which it probably won't be. Usually they rotate frigates on patrol in the Red Sea as part of international anti-piracy duties. A right-wing government might be of a mind to join freedom of navigation/ protection of trade routes duties in the South China Sea. So one frigate in the Red Sea, one in the South China Sea and one back home on rotation duties with the other two. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 28, 2023 6:48:33 GMT 12
You missed my point entirely. Where are they going to get the crew from when they struggle now to keep just two frigates in service?
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Post by nighthawknz on Oct 28, 2023 10:35:59 GMT 12
You missed my point entirely. Where are they going to get the crew from when they struggle now to keep just two frigates in service? They wanting to get the numbers back to what they use to be in all three services... not just increasing the army. So by time the replacement frigates and possible 3rd they will have the numbers... They have made a start with fair pay 'who dacky' to help fight retention of the the troops in all 3 services... Also the numbers are not as bad as people make it out to be... I couple of tied up patrol vessels total crew number of around 50 - 60 personal and of that half of them are what they are really short of... the trained and qualified personal... not the main boots on the ground. ie, the Petty officers and chief Petty Officers even throw in the Leading Hands etc... are what in short supply and a lot were leaving for a variety of reasons one of which was 'pay' was better in civy street. |
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Post by errolmartyn on Oct 28, 2023 11:24:38 GMT 12
From the nothing new under the sun department (on outbreak of WWI in August 1914):
Difficulties were also experienced in finding sufficient men to fill [Philomel] her war complement. The New Zealand branch of the Royal Naval Reserve was called out on 2 August, but its total strength was now down to four officers and thirty-seven men. Fourteen of the men reported to the ship immediately and were taken on board, along with fourteen volunteers, mostly stokers. Others joined the ship later, with the result that there were eventually nearly sixty New Zealanders in her 222-man crew. Imperial naval reservists were also obtained from merchant ships in New Zealand ports, but it is unlikely that the Philomel was fully-manned when she put to sea from Wellington on 8 August.
(The Path to Gallipoli – Defending New Zealand 1840-1915 by Ian McGibbon)
Errol
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Post by pepe on Oct 28, 2023 12:03:33 GMT 12
You missed my point entirely. Where are they going to get the crew from when they struggle now to keep just two frigates in service? I am not expecting to see three frigates in NZ service anytime soon (though there is a good argument for an additional hull). However crewing requirements on the new, (and larger) Type 31 frigates currently being built for the Royal Navy are much lower than on our existing Anzac vessels. There will be 107 crew embarked on the Type 31s versus the 178 sailors on our frigates. In theory three new frigates could be manned by slightly fewer than our existing requirements. www.royalnavy.mod.uk/the-equipment/ships/frigates/inspiration-class |
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Post by nighthawknz on Oct 28, 2023 13:46:19 GMT 12
You missed my point entirely. Where are they going to get the crew from when they struggle now to keep just two frigates in service? I am not expecting to see three frigates in NZ service anytime soon (though there is a good argument for an additional hull). However crewing requirements on the new, (and larger) Type 31 frigates currently being built for the Royal Navy are much lower than on our existing Anzac vessels. There will be 107 crew embarked on the Type 31s versus the 178 sailors on our frigates. In theory three new frigates could be manned by slightly fewer than our existing requirements. www.royalnavy.mod.uk/the-equipment/ships/frigates/inspiration-classThe issue comes as I said, do we have enough of the rightly trained people to man 3 frigates it is all very well saying we 360 crew members for 2 frigates and then saying that is enough to man 3... If there are only 2 trained as WEO's or MEO's or do you have enough Petty Officers to crew the third vessel... probably not... then we can't man the third... now put that on a larger scale across the board you run into the same issue. You may have enough crew members in general but do you have enough in the correct numbers in the correct branches and fields probably not... that will take time to rebuild and train the next replacing generation of the numbers of trained LH's, PO's and CPO's to be built up again... |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 28, 2023 14:27:42 GMT 12
Yes but expanding numbers in a specific trade or branch to meet the required number could easily be done in the time it takes to actually build the new ships. It won't be an overnight change, but a long process with lots of subcontracting and politics to sort, and the inevitable delays and strike action that happens in the shipping industry. So my theory is that having the right type of people is not the issue.
It is recruiting those people. The Navy these days is almost irrelevant in the public eyes, people are not queuing up to join like they used to, hence the reason numbers are so low now.
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Post by tbf2504 on Oct 28, 2023 14:34:12 GMT 12
The manpower situation was easily solved in the 1950x - 60s when youth miscreants were before the magistrate and they would be offered Borstal or the Navy. Most went the Navy way!! Perhaps the incoming government could look at
reinstating this as part of their "Correction plans for bad youth"
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 28, 2023 15:09:41 GMT 12
Now more than ever the NZDF needs to strive to recruit the best young people, not miscreants who have to either join the military or go to prison.
They need properly educated, enthusiastic, clever, fit, bright young people.
The first thing that should happen is a total revamp of NZDF public relations, to get a team in there that will make life in the military look actually appealing to smart young people. Rather than churning out the sort of stuff they present now, like that recent retarded poster campaign.
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Post by phil on Oct 28, 2023 15:56:38 GMT 12
Are the Chinese still producing our uniforms? Latest items I've got say either Made in NZ, or USA. |
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Post by alanster on Oct 28, 2023 20:57:52 GMT 12
The manpower situation was easily solved in the 1950x - 60s when youth miscreants were before the magistrate and they would be offered Borstal or the Navy. Most went the Navy way!! Perhaps the incoming government could look at reinstating this as part of their "Correction plans for bad youth" Hmmm, maybe they can join the cadets but you’d want properly motivated, mentally stable and professionally qualified people in today’s NZDF. It’s a professional defence force, not an extension of the ministry of corrections. |
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Post by thebrads on Oct 29, 2023 5:27:06 GMT 12
The manpower situation was easily solved in the 1950x - 60s when youth miscreants were before the magistrate and they would be offered Borstal or the Navy. Most went the Navy way!! Perhaps the incoming government could look at reinstating this as part of their "Correction plans for bad youth" Hmmm, maybe they can join the cadets but you’d want properly motivated, mentally stable and professionally qualified people in today’s NZDF. It’s a professional defence force, not an extension of the ministry of corrections. Disagree. Having served alongside several members of the RNZN that had entered via this route, they were some of the best in the service. One of them told me straight that in the service he found what he had lacked in his home life/upbringing (i.e. family, stability, employment, a sense of worth etc). I suspect the same attributes that other members of society find in gangs. |
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Post by alanster on Oct 29, 2023 14:16:41 GMT 12
Hmmm, maybe they can join the cadets but you’d want properly motivated, mentally stable and professionally qualified people in today’s NZDF. It’s a professional defence force, not an extension of the ministry of corrections. Disagree. Having served alongside several members of the RNZN that had entered via this route, they were some of the best in the service. One of them told me straight that in the service he found what he had lacked in his home life/upbringing (i.e. family, stability, employment, a sense of worth etc). I suspect the same attributes that other members of society find in gangs. Great but they should come through the normal route. Not direct from Court. |
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Post by machina on Oct 29, 2023 21:18:04 GMT 12
Disagree. Having served alongside several members of the RNZN that had entered via this route, they were some of the best in the service. One of them told me straight that in the service he found what he had lacked in his home life/upbringing (i.e. family, stability, employment, a sense of worth etc). I suspect the same attributes that other members of society find in gangs. Great but they should come through the normal route. Not direct from Court. They likely will never come through the normal route as I’m guessing people like that rarely even know there is a normal route, or that the option exists for them. |
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Post by dutchkiwi on Oct 30, 2023 2:26:13 GMT 12
Can we keep it on aviation... please. Lot of talk about navy and sealanes, but back to military aviation (if there is any in this topic) 🤔
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Post by skyhawkdon on Nov 3, 2023 14:34:16 GMT 12
NZF is definitely going to be pulling some strings in the new Gov't after today's final election outcome, so it is looking positive for Defence. Will be interesting to see what comes out of the coalition negotiations.
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