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Post by flyjoe180 on Feb 11, 2007 7:44:22 GMT 12
With the growing list of display aircraft for Omaka this year, I was wondering if the Thunder Mustang is going to display. I always enjoy the Thunder Mustang display, its always popular with the crowds and should be a regular airshow participant. Anyone know? Be a shame if it wasnt participating!
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Post by corsair67 on Feb 12, 2007 9:35:28 GMT 12
Are they f%&king crazy?  One of the reasons I was going to Omaka this year was to finally get to see the Thunder Mustang in action! Man, I'm not a happy camper!  |
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Post by rbwannabe on Feb 12, 2007 10:18:37 GMT 12
No Pitts display either (at least not by me).
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 12, 2007 11:48:50 GMT 12
This is hugely disappointing. Both the Pitts and the Thunder Mustang displays are fantastic, and really thrilling to the general public. I hope they can be made to reconsider.
Surely the Thunder Mustang has been around the country enough to be now a well known airshow drawcard, and on any billing would pull in more punters? The average Joe Public would be attracted to the speed and noise of it, if not the beauty and the crispness of the displays.
And, is it legal in NZ to have an airshow without a Pitts?
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Post by flyjoe180 on Feb 12, 2007 14:08:09 GMT 12
Go easy on the 'Joe public' label fella  Whoever the organisers are they can't overlook the Thunder Mustang! Can't you 'borrow' a Pitts or something Richard? |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 12, 2007 14:40:55 GMT 12
Sorry Mr Public |
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Post by flyjoe180 on Feb 12, 2007 14:42:47 GMT 12
You are forgiven Mr Dave
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Post by Allan Udy on Feb 12, 2007 20:32:22 GMT 12
Hi all, First of all a disclaimer -- the comments in this message are my OWN only, and do NOT represent the organisational view and/or policy of Classic Fighters Marlborough. I have NO direct input or influence on the aircraft that are to displayed at Classic Fighters. So if you want to flame anyone, direct it at me, and not at the airshow organisation in general! This is hugely disappointing. Both the Pitts and the Thunder Mustang displays are fantastic, and really thrilling to the general public. Surely the Thunder Mustang has been around the country enough to be now a well known airshow drawcard, and on any billing would pull in more punters? The average Joe Public would be attracted to the speed and noise of it, if not the beauty and the crispness of the displays. Agree, yes the aircraft has been seen around the country enough so that many know what it is, but have to totally disagree that having the aircraft at the show would significantly pull more punters. I'm afraid that most of the people that use this and other aviation forums are just way too enthused about aviation in general to really understand how totally ignorant Mr Average Joe Public (the airshow attendee) really is. He (Mr A.J. Public) really doesn't know what a Thunder Mustang is, and the fact that it's on the show billing will not draw him to the show. I make this rather bold statement from having spent the best part of the last five years marketing the Classic Fighters show, attending other shows to fly our flag and encourage more punters (e.g. at Wigram, Ardmore, Wanaka and Masterton), and talking to lots of A.J's friends and relatives who ask me questions about our show, the displays and so on, in person, by phone or by email. Having a Thunder Mustang on the billing for the show is great for any given show, as it does provide an interesting display (if you're into raw speed) and is not merely a display slot filler. But from a marketing standpoint, I'd have to say that it's not in the same league as the other primary crowd pulling aircraft. At the end of the day the most important consideration is money. Any airshow can only have the number of aircraft that they think they can afford based on attendance figures. None of us want to lose a swag of money, and so in this day & age of ever increasing options for peoples dscretionary spending, it is necessary to be somewhat cautious with airshow budgets. I'm pretty sure that the budget for CF2007 has NOT been reduced, and in fact is somewhat greater than the budget in 2005. However, in almost all cases it now costs more than it did a mere two ago to have display aircraft appear at our show (sometimes significantly more), so it's not necessarily always going to be possible to have the same aircraft displaying. In fact one of the prime goals of the Classic Fighters organising committee is to strive as hard as we can, to continually change the show, and bring everyone (enthusiasts and AJ Public alike) displays and aircraft that haven't been seen before. I think Classic Fighters has done a pretty good job of this in the past, and I'm confident that no one who comes to Omaka at Easter this year will be able to complain that they've seen the same show before. I'm sure everyone would love to see the Thunder Mustang at Omaka again, but when you look at all the figures, and have to juggle them, sometimes things just don't stack up. This year it's likely to be these particular aircraft, in 2009 it's likely to be some of the others. Don't assume that Classic Fighters is going to be an inferior show simply because the budgets have been more difficult to work with this year -- the whole point is that the better the organisation budgets and plans, the better the show that can be staged, with the limited resources available. I hope you're all still coming to the show! :-) Cheers Allan |
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Post by Peter Lewis on Feb 12, 2007 21:12:47 GMT 12
Well said Allan. Thanks for your insight. . . and yes I will be there.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 12, 2007 21:19:19 GMT 12
Allan, I'll still be there with bells on, as you know. I'm dead keen. And I'm sure that everything else on the list that will appear there will be fantastic.
My point was if you advertised that the fastest piston engined aircraft in the country was to perform, at least a few extra punters, especially petrol heads, will turn up because of it . As you've a hell of a lot more experience than me in these matters, I fully defer to your point of view.
I do see your point that the budget is always a factor. It must be much harder thanks to the fuel prices.
I'm just looking forward to seeing the Zero dogfighting the P-40's, like on your poster, though I doubt it'll be as good as when I saw Ray and Mark Hanna doing it at Mangere and Wigram.
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Post by flyjoe180 on Feb 13, 2007 8:31:58 GMT 12
Well I guess that answers my question then, Thunder Mustang won't be going. Maybe, sometimes, we are too enthusiastic about our passion for aviation, but its enthusiasm from a small corner that spreads interest to the rest of the populace. I'm sure the show will be a fine success all the same, thankyou for clarifying your point of view Allan. Whilst I can't be at Omaka this year, I'll be looking out for the DVD in the near future to continue feeding my over-enthusiasm  |
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Post by Citabria on Feb 13, 2007 8:59:31 GMT 12
Hi Allan,
Whilst I understand and respect your comments, is it not a bit near sighted to to use the no money reason for not inviting an aircraft type.
As I'm sure you know it cost ALL of us to attend your show or any of the airshows around the country and we do it for the love of aviation.
How do you think that we feel, and it's not just Simon here when we get snubbed and lets be honest here, that's what it is...
I fully understand that you are trying to run an airshow, however it goes both ways, one day you might need Simon and the Thunder Mustang or Richard in the Pitts so why not think longer term?
Why not have another look at the Mustang and Pitts issue? Why not give Simon a call and see if you can work something out....
I'm sure he will PM you his cell.
Cheers
Andrew
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Post by Allan Udy on Feb 13, 2007 9:10:57 GMT 12
My point was if you advertised that the fastest piston engined aircraft in the country was to perform, at least a few extra punters, especially petrol heads, will turn up because of it . You're right, a few extra petrol heads will turn up, but the question we always need to ask, and keep asking is, does the following equation hold true.... $Extra_Tickets_Sold => $Advertising_Cost + $Aircraft_Cost If the extra income generated is less than the extra costs involved, and sometimes it will be, then we have to seriously consider whether having and advertising the aircraft is a sensible thing to do. Sometimes it is possible as it adds to the overall value and flavour of the show, and other times (depending on other costs/aircraft/displays etc etc) it's not possible. A good example of this was the 747 dispay at Ardmore a few years back. I haven't got exact figures for the display costs etc, but from what I was told at the time, I would have seriously re-considered whether that one aircraft/display was a financially sensible thing to do. For sure, all of us aviation enthusiasts who were there, really loved seeing the display, it was cool, but the upshot of it was that it would have helped contribute to the financial loss that the airshow made, and the fact that there's not been a major airshow on that scale in Auckland since then (as far as I'm aware). Everyone down here likes seeing the TM (as well as some of the others that may not be at Omaka this year), but it all boils down to the fact that we need to make a profit from the show to continue to provide funds for the Aviation Heritage Centre to continue to expand. At the end of the day, that is the entire reason for the existence of this show -- to provide funds for the AHC. For those of you who are not aware of it, the AHC currently consists of two (joined, and very large) hangar spaces. Plans already exist, and the land is set aside for the facility to grow to FIVE similarly sized hangar spaces. Don't know how long it will take to get to FIVE, but to paraphrase the immortal Winston, the opening of the AHC in December last year is not the beginning of the end, merely the end of the beginning! :-) Cheers Allan |
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Post by Bruce on Feb 13, 2007 9:37:57 GMT 12
Having worked on the SportAvex comittee for a couple of shows I have to agree with Allan. It is sometimes very difficult to decide what to put in the show, especially if they are likely to be expensive. Airshows are fickle things, and yes, you can generate a lot of income if 15,000 or so turn up on a great day, but what if the weather turns crap? there are still many thousands of dollars of expenditure that needs to be paid regardless of whether the show goes ahead or not, and when planning the show care has to be taken to minimise that risk.
The SportAvex policy has been to pay "professional" acts and offer a donation to others based on crowd turnout on the day, Not always popular with performers we admit, but there is very little else we can do sometimes. The only way we got the Hunter at SportAvex 06 was because of a generous sponsor (who has subsequently gone bankrupt!) so seeing it at future events will depend on finding a suitable replacement sponsor. When the budget is tightly controlled, the acts have to be chosen, generally based on the theme and direction of the show - in Omakas case it is classic fighters, therefore the Thunder Mustang and Pitts are lower down the list. At SportAvex, they would be much higher up as they represent Sport aviation (We'd love to have you guys there...)
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Post by Allan Udy on Feb 13, 2007 9:52:10 GMT 12
is it not a bit near sighted to to use the no money reason for not inviting an aircraft type. Well, I don't believe it is (again, please remember this is my opinion, not that of Classic Fighters) -- if CF doesn't have the money, then they don't have the money. That's how it is. As I'm sure you know it cost ALL of us to attend your show or any of the airshows around the country and we do it for the love of aviation. And I'm sure everyone down here appreciates that many do it for the love of aviation. Certainly there are many people who bring their aircraft to Omaka (and elsewhere of course) and end up with very little financial reward, but hopefully have a good time etc. The other side of the coin is that while the airshow organisers appreciate that, and it makes the job easier, I'm sure (that for Classic Fighters at least), the organisation does NOT expect aircraft owners to bring their aircraft and make a financial loss. Any airhsow organiser that works in that way is just plain stupid. Take the DC3 as an example, we lost significant $$$ at Masterton as the amount to fly down, was significantly more than we were offered although we still attended... Why? For the love of it and the passion. .....How do you think that we feel, Well to be honest, if you're prepared to lose the money for the love of aviation then that's your choice. I'm sure Masterton appreciate the fact that you were there (or maybe not), but I'm also certain that Classic Fighters would not ask you to operate at a loss unless you were prepared to do so. and it's not just Simon here when we get snubbed and lets be honest here, that's what it is... Let's be really honest here, and appreciate it for what it really is, a financial decision and nothing more. In no way was/is this a snub, and to be honest I'm quite unhappy that anyone in the community would view it as that. If the TM turns up I am certain that it will get a display slot. But if Classic Fighters feels that for this years show at least, the amount asked to display the aircraft doesn't fit in with all the other budgetry requirements, then please don't spread the word that CF are snubbing the aircrat/pilot/owner. We got snubbed at Masterton when they wouldn't let us do a scenic over the lunch period to help us recoup our costs (despite me personally begging) and I hope that your team will be a little bit more flexible at Omaka. The question I would ask is why did Masterton say 'no'. Was it really a snub, or was it an operational decision? I have had close contact with both Geoff and Jessica at times over the past three-four years, and I'm pretty confident that they would happily confirm that Classic Fighters does everything they can to be helpful and considerate for the DC3 crowd. Maybe sometimes thinks don't quite go perfectly to plan, but t's certainly not because of a lack of effort on the part of the Classic Fighters team. ...one day you might need Simon and the Thunder Mustang or Richard in the Pitts so why not think longer term? One day Classic Fighters will be in a position of inviting them again. If they choose not to come, then that will be their decision, and I don't think you'll hear anyone from Classic Fighters complaining about being snubbed. Come on guys, this is a small country, and a small fraternity, if everyone is to take every decision personally then we're always going to have silly arguments, which does no-one any good. Why not have another look at the Mustang and Pitts issue? Why not give Simon a call and see if you can work something out.... I fully expect that if either Simon or Richard really do want to come down and display, then the Classic Fighters team is ALWAYS prepared to talk about the various options and throw ideas around. Aircraft owners and pilots do not need to wait for an invitation to display if they really want to. They can offer their services, tell the CF team how much they want to do it, and then everyone can talk and discuss it. But it really all does come down to money and who pays what. If Classic Fighters can't pay the bill, and the aircraft owners do not want to foot the bill (which is reasonable of them), then sometimes, for some shows, some aircraft will not be displayed. It has nothing to do with Classic Fighters not wanting particular aircraft and pilots. Cheers Allan |
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Post by Citabria on Feb 13, 2007 14:03:47 GMT 12
Thanks Allan,
I guess that we will have different views on this one.
However I'm a new, very small player and don't want to ruffle any feathers so I won't go on much more than to say...
I, like Simon, own and operate an aircraft and you are paying me to attend and display at Omaka this year (indirectly) not as part of the DC3. I know how much and without going into detail publicly, you are well short of what it will cost me to attend.
But you guys go one about how you need younger pilots to come in and help, and here you have two young keen guys trying to get started on the airshow scene and now you want us to pay more $$$ or at least subside your show.
As you said it really is about the $$, I still and never will BTW accept that, however....
I have no idea what has transpired between you and the Thunder Mustang, I just hope as a fellow aviation enthusiast that you can work something out, in your officially capacity on the committee as we are all watching with interest.
I wish you guys every sucess and rather than carry on in a public forum I will certainly be there and I'd love to catch up for a beer, (if you'll talk to me). ;D
Cheers
Andrew
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 13, 2007 14:14:56 GMT 12
Allan, I notice that the Thunder Mustang is listed on your site as one of the aircraft to attend www.classicfighters.co.nz/ac/postwar.shtmlI realise the aircraft on the site are not confirmed and are subject to change but I thought I'd point this out before other punters become disappointed too. Does it need to be removed? I note there's still no sign on the site of the Spitfire, nor the Zero. Any news? Also will Mustang 'Dove of Peace' be attending the show? I was very sad that it wasn't able to fly at Wanaka. I've never seen two Mustangs together. |
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Post by Allan Udy on Feb 13, 2007 15:07:29 GMT 12
I like Simon, own and operate an aircraft and you are paying me to attend and display at Omaka this year (indirectly) not as part of the DC3. I know how much and without going into detail publicly, you are well short of what it will cost me to attend. But you guys go one about how you need younger pilots to come in and help, and here you have two young keen guys trying to get started on the airshow scene and now you want us to pay more $$$ or at least subside your show. I'm intriqued to know how it is that Classic Fighters is 'well short' of what it will cost you to attend? For those of you who don't know how this works, in the first instance the airshow looks to invite the aircraft and owners that are highly desired for the show. The owners are then asked to name their price. If it's acceptable the organisation says 'yes, let's do it'. If the price does not fit in with the budget, or seems out of whack with other aircraft for some reason, my understanding is that a discussion will take place. At that stage either the owner/pilot and Classic Fighters comes up with a workable compromise that suits both, Classic Fighters bites the bullet and pays more than they think they should, or the pilot and aircraft stays at home for Easter. Easy peasy. If you make the decision to bring your aircraft to the show, at an agreed price then I don't see how you can complain that CF is trying to make you pay more $ or subside the show....? We could just as easily complain that the young pilots are just trying to screw money out of us when we're trying to raise money for a charitable trust! I have no idea what has transpired between you and the Thunder Mustang, As far as I'm aware, nothing. It's just back to the question of whether the cost of a given aircraft fits within the budget of a given show. Hell if we had unlimited resources, as Dave Lochead points out, the show would have a large number of other aircraft as well as the TM. This is not about personalities, snubbing, bitchiness or politics or anything like that. It's about costs versus budget, and the monetary risk involved for the show organisers. Nothing more, nothing less. Happy to catch up with you for a beer at Easter  Cheers Allan |
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Post by Allan Udy on Feb 13, 2007 15:10:11 GMT 12
Yes, I'm still trying to get an accurate lists of what IS coming, or at least what is likely, so that I can get these pages updated ASAP. Apologies to everyone that the lists are somewhat out of date. There is a lot of work to be done, and as Dave Lochead pointed out, none of us are paid to do it, unlike some members of the team from Wanaka, Masterton and other shows. Here at Omaka we're all volunteers who do it for the love of aviation. Cheers Allan |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 13, 2007 15:24:10 GMT 12
Thanks Allan. As I mentioned on Dave's thread, your efforts are appreciated by me and I'm sure by many others here. I've heard nothing but good feedback on previous Omaka shows. And the budget has to work for you to gain a profit or there's no point in doing it.
I'm curious about the Ardmore show you mentioned with the 747. What year was that? I think the last big show there was 2004 when they got so many people coming along it was a record crowd and the queue of cars went back to the motorway several km's away and police made them rip the fence down to let everyone in. I wasn't there but saw the queue on the news, and I've often wondered if those who went through the fence paid to get in. If they did, the show must have made a good profit. Was that the same show?
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