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Post by timmo on Oct 4, 2010 12:24:14 GMT 12
A couple of points- Dave, are you certain that the same IP address = the same person/Computer? If they were going through a common router (i.e. at the University campus) then it is possible that multiple people have the same IP?
Regardless, it isn't debate if everyone agrees.....
Reading the Stuff article made me raise my eyebrows a bit in regards to the Frigates.....I'm surprised that they don't have a longer life than that (given that a lot of our air assets, of a more fragile construction, have lasted 40 years.....)
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Post by adzze on Oct 4, 2010 13:05:02 GMT 12
I'm surprised that [the Frigates] don't have a longer life than that (given that a lot of our air assets, of a more fragile construction, have lasted 40 years.....) From what I've read elsewhere, they are being thrashed more than other examples in their class (due to the fact there are only two of them, when really we needed three). This has meant an early mid-life servicing (now), and an early retirement. It would seem that buying two was a false economy. |
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Post by ErrolC on Oct 4, 2010 13:29:19 GMT 12
I'm surprised that [the Frigates] don't have a longer life than that (given that a lot of our air assets, of a more fragile construction, have lasted 40 years.....) From what I've read elsewhere, they are being thrashed more than other examples in their class (due to the fact there are only two of them, when really we needed three). This has meant an early mid-life servicing (now), and an early retirement. It would seem that buying two was a false economy. Ours are the 1st and 3rd built. They offered us the 2nd and 4th for cheap, all have construction issues. Don't buy the early part of an Aussie shipbuilding run... |
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Post by yak2 on Oct 4, 2010 13:41:31 GMT 12
Ours are the 1st and 3rd built.... Think you will find NZ got the 2nd and 4th built. |
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Post by kiwiscanfly on Oct 4, 2010 13:42:52 GMT 12
In Stuff this morning Wayne Mapp is signalling the general thrust of the paper, which will now be published "next month"...: www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4193177/5b-bill-ahead-for-ships-aircraft"[...]The Government would also need about $1.2b to replace the Hercules transport planes in 2020 and between $1.6b and $2b to replace the P3 Orion aircraft in 2025 with some other long-range maritime surveillance aircraft. [...]" No mention of an ACF or recommissioning the Aermachhis - at least not yet... the former would likely be signalled along with the other big ticket items I imagine, if it was on the table. It's not another delay is it?? when it said "next month" is that just bad journalism?? because it still states the release of the white paper on the ministry if defense website as "October" |
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Post by yogi on Oct 4, 2010 16:14:49 GMT 12
I dont know about you guys but all I really got out of that stuff article was savings savings savings.
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Post by ErrolC on Oct 4, 2010 17:05:26 GMT 12
Ours are the 1st and 3rd built.... Think you will find NZ got the 2nd and 4th built. You're right. We were then offered the 3rd, with the 1st thrown in for free-ish. |
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Post by Ykato on Oct 4, 2010 17:46:55 GMT 12
Review of military set to free up $100m By MARTIN KAY - The Dominion Post Last updated 05:00 04/10/2010 Up to $100 million a year could be diverted from behind-the-lines Defence Force jobs to help bridge funding gaps in the army, navy and air force as the military gets its biggest shakeup in more than a decade. A Defence Force White Paper due in the first week of next month is understood to include a finding that significantly more than the savings of $50m originally targeted in a value-for-money review by former Telecom boss Rod Deane can be freed up from administrative, maintenance and other tasks. full item is located Here: www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/politics/4193026/Review-of-military-set-to-free-up-100m$5b bill for Defence Force www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/politics/4193027/5b-bill-for-Defence-Force |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 4, 2010 17:53:30 GMT 12
A couple of points- Dave, are you certain that the same IP address = the same person/Computer? If they were going through a common router (i.e. at the University campus) then it is possible that multiple people have the same IP? Yes, I had considered that of course but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out how slim the odds are that two supposedly different people in a shared IP environment are both posting on the same thread on the same forum like that, and both with inflammatory views aimed at trolling the forum. It is just too unlikely to not be the same person. He has all but admitted it anyway. Of course not. And aart from the trolls, I believe free debate has been allowed, with varying views being expressed. I have no problem if this is done within the rules, and with decorum. A bit of banter between opposing debaters is also fine. But blatant personal attacks, trolling, and deliberate atempts to cause trouble and destable the harmony of forum are not welcome. I have discussed this thread with the other two moderators and we have decided to leave it open for now, but it is on thin ice and I warn all members now to keep the debate and discussion civil, polite and relevant. Otherwise the next bit of trouble this thread will be locked. |
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Post by ceskazbrojovka on Oct 4, 2010 18:15:25 GMT 12
I know how it feels for you blokes in NZ. Our White paper was delayed over for over 6 months, from December 08' to July 09'.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Oct 4, 2010 19:40:45 GMT 12
Regarding the ANZAC Frigates, I think their expected useful life isn't bad considering the environment they live/operate in. Frigates by design are lightweight fighting vessels and sooner or later they wear/rust out (probably sooner than a more heavily constructed ship because of their light-weight construction). You can only scrape off so much rust before there is no more metal to rust!
I know the old Leander Frigates were on their last legs when we finally retired them. There were serious concerns about their hull strength (the outer skin plates were getting VERY thin) and their power plant, electrical and environmental systems were falling apart (or burning apart in the case of the electrical systems!).
I saw HMNZS Endevour in Wellington a few weeks ago and she is looking her age too. There is only so much you can cover with a paint brush on a 30 year old ship!
The proposed Mid-Life-Upgrade for the ANZACs is more a weapon systems/sensor upgrade than a mechanical upgrade isn't it?
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Post by obiwan27 on Oct 4, 2010 20:03:03 GMT 12
I think the White Paper is shaping up to be steady as she goes, signalling of the obvious replacement requirements over the next 10+ years such as the C130s, P3s and Frigates. My gut feeling is any potential reactivation of the Maachis was scuppered by the SCF bailout and need to divert $$$ due to the Canterbury earthquake. It'd be nice to be proved wrong :-)
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Post by obiwan27 on Oct 4, 2010 20:17:47 GMT 12
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Post by adzze on Oct 4, 2010 20:18:00 GMT 12
The proposed Mid-Life-Upgrade for the ANZACs is more a weapon systems/sensor upgrade than a mechanical upgrade isn't it? From what I can see from the MoD LTDP, there's two major projects involving the frigates: the Platform Systems upgrade, and the Self-Defence Upgrade (at this stage, only the former has been given approval I think). From the LTDP: "The [class platform systems upgrade] project involves upgrading the existing propulsion systems, and heating, ventilation and air-conditioning systems, as well as modifications to the hull. A replacement machinery control system will reduce technical manpower needs." |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 4, 2010 20:41:06 GMT 12
$2 Billion is a huge amount for just two frigates. A Type 45 Daring Class destroyer - the most capable stealth warship afloat that is not an aircraft carrier - costs the same as that! I think someone's overwriting that a fair bit, surely, unless the $2 Billion is a projection for 2030 money after inflation. Or unless they are returning to four/six frigates like the Navy had in the past?
Do alarm bells ring for anyone else that a former Telecom boss is the one writing the White Paper? Obviously NZ's military analysts are not capable of the job? Underqualified in swinging the axe I guess.
I have long thought this White Paper has forboding all over it, but now I think Rod Deane is probably going to do as much harm to NZDF with this White Paper as Dingo Deans did to the Wallabies in my opinion. Only this time it's not a good thing in NZ's favour.
For those who have forgotten, Deane was the Reserve Bank Governor who devalued the dollar in 1984. He and Roger Douglas then set about selling off all the state owned enterprises and assets (including Telecom which they sold to the USA and then he got the job running, nice that eh! If we still owned Telecom as a country, andf the other assets they stripped and privatised, we'd be MUCH richer). He has also been the Chairman of Te Papa, head of Woolworths, and the National Art Gallery, and chair of Fletcher Challenge. So, lots of background with military affairs there.
There are obviously massive lay offs and privatisation coming and undoubtedly another drop in NZDF capability. All you dreamers who think the Maachis are coming back into service are in for a huge fall I think.
As for the delay, I wouldn't wish for the White Paper to be released at all to be honest. I think the last one that was actually positive for the RNZAF was in the 1960's, wasn't it?
As an aside, it is interesting when you go to type Rod Deane into Wikipedia and its dropdown box of suggestions pops up as you type, the top suggestion is rodent. ;D
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Post by kiwiscanfly on Oct 4, 2010 23:02:17 GMT 12
I bloody hope he has...... Dave I hate to disagree with you but regarding your comment about a "drop in NZDF capability" seems a bit odd as I can't see they review getting rid of anything, even if they wanted to i'm finding it hard to see what we can afford to loose. and by reading the article (http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/politics/4193026/Review-of-military-set-to-free-up-100m) as already posted I would think that to limit our overall capability even further would seem like the last thing any country in the Asia Pacific region would do. (I say this also relating to the arms build up and massive defense spending in the region) But I will agree with you dave that the return of the Maccchi's seem's now like an unlikely prospect. But I still believe that we will get something positive out of the review with regards to the RNZAF and a slight increase in combat capability. For example more A109's armed and arming the P3-K2's. I wont list what else I have on my predictions for the RNZAF but I have had discussions with an individual within the NZDF who is sure of a more positive outcome of the review......... i agree not a massive capability jump but a jump or a return to our former glory but a change for the better none the less. |
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Post by corokid66 on Oct 5, 2010 0:38:43 GMT 12
If they spending 2 Billion on frigates then they are hopefullly not going down the track of the proposed 7000t Anzac II which the Aussies want - which basically is a destoyer in my book. Then all we would be serving is the OZ shipbuilding industry and not serving our proven need for 3 vessels. I would rather we spent 2b on three standard flex type ships like the Danish F-370 Class than two Anzac II's.
The A-109's are a go for the Hellfire? Who is up with the play on that around here?
By the way - what is the harm in suggesting to the government in a few years to take six F-18F/G Shornets post 2020 once their buy-buy back deal is done. I understand their is an intention to keep some. Could a composite Anzac Squadron of us having six and the OZ having six work in practice?
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Post by corokid66 on Oct 5, 2010 0:48:49 GMT 12
Dave - I think that Martyn Dunne and simon Murdoch are the point men on the actual review and Deane is just doing the value for money exercise considering the present.
As for NZ defence experts maybe they hired arclight and found he was wanting so they let him go thus his packing a sad on WONZ. Just joking.....
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Post by skyhawkdon on Oct 5, 2010 6:48:19 GMT 12
A good article, but NZ's politicians have their heads in the sand so I doubt they will even notice it  |
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Post by timmo on Oct 5, 2010 9:06:25 GMT 12
A good article, but NZ's politicians have their heads in the sand so I doubt they will even notice it haha and given past politicians actions/inactions on recommendations contained with white papers (defence or otherwise), it's unlikely that they will notice/act on recommendations in this one  |
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