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Post by kiwiscanfly on Jan 14, 2011 19:21:16 GMT 12
I have just read all of the comments regarding the 757's and am wondering why such a valuable asset got a cold reception in the DWP, and whey they will possibly be reviewing the type of platform to be used in the strategic airlift role in the 2015 review??
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Post by adzze on Jan 14, 2011 19:47:47 GMT 12
I wonder how common the type of configuration in our modified B757s is among OEM strategic airlifters? Even if defence planners opted for A400Ms to replace the Hercs, they would still need something with speed to replace the 757s, presumably.
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Post by guest on Jan 14, 2011 20:55:54 GMT 12
I have just read all of the comments regarding the 757's and am wondering why such a valuable asset got a cold reception in the DWP, and whey they will possibly be reviewing the type of platform to be used in the strategic airlift role in the 2015 review?? I believe the Value For Money review gave the B757 the cold reception (It is on the MoD web site). So the DWP didn't make a comment until a decision is made by the Chiefs as to how to save the money. Obviously,at the end of the day, if the money isn't saved, then the Defence Force doesn't get new equipment. At the risk of being a heretic, at least under Labour, equipment purchases were separated from operating - the Long Term Development Plan. |
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Post by guest on Jan 14, 2011 21:01:49 GMT 12
I wonder how common the type of configuration in our modified B757s is among OEM strategic airlifters? Even if defence planners opted for A400Ms to replace the Hercs, they would still need something with speed to replace the 757s, presumably. A400M: Cruise - Mach 0.68 - 0.72 B757: Cruise - Mach 0.8 Gash figures, I admit, but better than 300 knots (if you are lucky) |
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Post by phil on Jan 14, 2011 21:25:20 GMT 12
The way I look at the 757 role(my view only) is it is not a true military role as in VIP.The PM can fly air New zealand and I would not mind betting he prefers it aswell.I was just two weeks ago on a flight from Christchurch to Wellington which had several Air force and Army officers on it,and yes this was an Air NZ flight,so it beggs debate this VIP role. Why not do away with it and place your limited funds towards getting a more reliable and bigger C-130 replacement and a multi role trainer capable of a dual transport and short range maritime patrol role aswell as multi engine training. Had we replaced the Andover at the time of retirement and replaced the C-130 we would not be in this mess in the first place. Just my thoughts. The 757 is NOT a VIP aircraft. It is our strategic airlift capability. The Iroquois has a VIP role too - but you aren't calling for us to do away with the helicopter fleet. Take a little time to learn what the aircraft actually does. While not impossible, it's a bit tricky to get an ANZ flight to send a rotation on OP CRIB for example. And it's a bloody long flight from NZ on a Herc if you are flying to the other side of the world. |
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Post by hawkeye on Jan 15, 2011 9:28:41 GMT 12
Sounds like a bit of crying that the horse has bolted. We have them now- have customised them, put them to use and introduced into service.
I dont think the people commenting on this were logistics specialist?
To make a valid comment I think someone would have to be really up on the play with aviation development, costs and the Air logistics indust
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Post by Chris F on Jan 16, 2011 8:39:48 GMT 12
Another hot subject,my view is regarding VIP work that Air NZ can undertake not about strategic airlift.
The Govt has made it clear to the NZDF cut costs and this gets new equipment down the track.
The NZDF needs to assess like any well run business its CORE activities that its requires to operate VS those that it can "Farm" out or do away with all together.
Dont worry every role within the NZDF will come under the microscope over the next wee while and there will be on going cuts,you want new Frigates,Herc and Orion replacements well they cost big coin and there will be savings made to accomodate these future requirements.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 16, 2011 10:21:35 GMT 12
VIP air transport has been a core part of the RNZAF's role since the 1920's. The reason the RNZAF has this role is because they have the capability to provide an aircraft to transport the VIP within an hour's notice, whereas you'd be pushing shit uphill to get any of New Zealand's airlines to be able to provide such a service, ropping everything to provide an aircraft, crew and groundcrew for such a trip. Another reason the RNZAF provides the role is for security to the passengers, which the airlines cannot provide. And on the large overseas trips that the likes of the PM takes, the plane doesn't just take the PM but all of his/her staff necessary for the trip, plus the media's political journalists who follow the entourage, and other key personnel. The aircraft is usually full. Put them all onto airliners and the bill is probably a lot more as a lot of them would expect to fly First Class due to their status.
The VIP role is a tiny percentage of what the Air Force does but it does them no harm to be fulfilling that role. And you'll find some VIP flights are done by the C-130's and P-3K's as well as the Iroquois and Boeing 757's.
As for the airlift role that carries our NZDF troops around, I think they are all worthy of the title Very Important People too.
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Post by Chris F on Jan 16, 2011 16:10:30 GMT 12
Understand your point Dave but all those people can fit on a B777 or a B787 and the service would be 100% more classy.At the end of the day the Defence Dollar is under huge pressure to provide a core level of capability and all capabilities across all services will come under the microscope.Roles we have performed in the past may not be roles for the future if they are not 100% justified.
At the end of the day the "Bean" counters will rule the Defence spend not the Defence Force.
This Government have put a future plan forward which on paper looks good....but this is very dependant on the Government staying in power and bare in mind it's election year and the election is planned for after the Rugby World Cup....risky move if the All Blacks missed making the final.....remember 1999 and Jenny Shipley!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 16, 2011 16:27:52 GMT 12
Air New Zealand would be 100% more classy than an RNZAF Boeing 757?
In what respect?? Please explain this statement.
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Post by Chris F on Jan 16, 2011 16:51:31 GMT 12
Simple.....Service what they are good at and trained to excel in.
It's interesting that this year Air NZ has studied the option of buying the Q400 as a possible replacement for the ATR 72 and also using the big 80 seater in some of the peak Q300 routes thus freeing up the Q300 fleet which the RNZAF have this year supplied line pilots top be trained on and fly domestic services.....maybe there is a behind the seens deal where Air NZ provide the aircraft and servicing and the RNZAF the pilots who have been trained on the type.
Who knows........food for thought.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 16, 2011 17:29:22 GMT 12
So in a nutshell you are saying that Air New Zealand would be 100% better because the RNZAF are not good at flying a VIP service and not trained to excel in that role? That is very insulting to No. 40 Squadron's crews past and present in my opinion, and very naive on your part. You don't actually seem to have any idea about the RNZAF transport squadron's role, capability and purpose.
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Post by Chris F on Jan 16, 2011 18:03:26 GMT 12
No need to be sharp Dave as I said in the first place its my view only.
And yes as a matter of fact I beleive that Air NZ provide a world class passenger service and would without any doubt provide a better class of VIP service than the RNZAF.
Have you flown Air NZ of late Dave?
There service is fanatastic...I am not knocking the RNZAF just saying that I dont see the 757 as a core role...time will tell.
Lets face facts as part of the cost cutting to get new frigates and aircraft in the next 30 odd years there are a lot of areas been looked at as "farmed" out,like Base fire fighting,medical,catering,...and a whole lot more.
If you can farm out fire fighting in the military there aint much hope for the 757.
Just my view.
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Post by hawkeye on Jan 16, 2011 18:40:59 GMT 12
Aha - something I have first hand knowledge on - deploying on ops on a Teeny Weeny Blue Line Airline B757 is the most classiest way to deploy - better than Air NZ (exclude cuddle class but not too keen to cuddle my mates) - Seats comfy, food good, and they even play Billy T on TV. the next best is C-130 if you can sleep in rack. Long trips in cattle class is opposite end of spectrum.
The B757 is fine and should be left alone. We should also have no problems with our Prime Minister rocking up on overseas formal visits using the Aircraft. Its secure and a Govt Asset not like a civilian asset and is part of being a modern country. Especially means alot when dealing with Asian countries.
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Post by Chris F on Jan 16, 2011 18:47:29 GMT 12
They can go by Canterbury another expensive and under used defence buy.
Or the C-130 or its replacement.
Our PM is nothing on the world stage and does not need a military transport at all.
I am sure he would personally sooner fly Air NZ in a more modern reliable type.
There are sure to be a lot of role within the entire NZDF to be cut...thats if you really want those tasty Frigate and new aircraft....wait till the pay cuts and cutting of your super.
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Post by luke6745 on Jan 16, 2011 19:14:44 GMT 12
They can go by Canterbury another expensive and under used defence buy. Or the C-130 or its replacement. Our PM is nothing on the world stage and does not need a military transport at all. I am sure he would personally sooner fly Air NZ in a more modern reliable type. There are sure to be a lot of role within the entire NZDF to be cut...thats if you really want those tasty Frigate and new aircraft....wait till the pay cuts and cutting of your super. How long would it take to deploy 200 troops on the Canturbury to a pacific island? I would like to know because it certainly isn't a 2-5 hour trip! |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 16, 2011 19:26:25 GMT 12
Luke, it depends how many times it turns back to Devonport with engine problems.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Jan 16, 2011 19:44:33 GMT 12
It appears our resident "mole" is back trying to wind us up and push his left wing anti-defence views. He clearly knows nothing about what he is talking about and his latest comments about 40 Squadron are highly insulting to those of us who know better. My suggestion to everyone is to just ignore this idiot's posts.
Raptor you were warned after your last epesode what would happen if you went down this path again... you have been warned.
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Post by phil on Jan 16, 2011 19:50:23 GMT 12
They can go by Canterbury another expensive and under used defence buy. Or the C-130 or its replacement. Our PM is nothing on the world stage and does not need a military transport at all. I am sure he would personally sooner fly Air NZ in a more modern reliable type. There are sure to be a lot of role within the entire NZDF to be cut...thats if you really want those tasty Frigate and new aircraft....wait till the pay cuts and cutting of your super. Lol, sure. Lets deploy people to the MEAO on Canturbury. Or bring our casualties home the same way. Or lets take a week by Herc. Can ANZ dispatch an aircraft at a couple of hours notice to fly into an operational theatre and bring defence casualties home, as happened last year? No, of course it can't. ANZ doesn't employ many AME qualified medical personnel, last time I checked. Are you purpossfully trolling by ignoring it's full role and continuing in refering only to the VIP component? Or are you just too lazy to actually learn what it's role is. |
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Post by Chris F on Jan 16, 2011 20:23:52 GMT 12
I am only talking about the VIP for Politicians on overseas flights and internal flights.
I beleive and in my view only that Air NZ could do this better and save costs.
Why did we buy the Canterbury then?
to sit tied up?
Come on guys be fair its all good debate.....and after all no one here has any say what so ever and never will,costs cutting in Defence will always rule and that will not change no matter who holds the purse strings.
My view was always about the VIP role and how in my view this would save costs which could go towards the new Frigates and aircraft.
I am sure the experts in their field will study all roles of the 757 before making any rash decisions.
If Iam nbot allowed my views then shit happens....no big deal really!
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