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Post by yogi on Aug 27, 2010 20:33:43 GMT 12
Just posting to bring this thread to the front of the que for mr bean to read. It will hopefully save us having to repeat our opinions in the defence review thread... not that I have a problem with that  |
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Post by yogi on Mar 31, 2022 19:17:29 GMT 12
13 years later, in light of recent events and a slow but steady change from a "benign strategic environment" to facing an emergent china I am bumping this thread.
Is it time NZ took our defence force seriously again?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 31, 2022 19:26:58 GMT 12
We just had one of these threads. It went round in circles as they always do, and the moderators decided to lock it because there really is no point thinking a combat force will return with this current government and the current public lethargy toward it and the current huge debt Labour has accrued.
Do we really need to discuss it all again a week or so later?
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Post by pepe on Mar 31, 2022 19:28:42 GMT 12
Do we really need yet another thread on the same subject? There have been a few threads "bumped" recently discussing the same things...
(Whoops, Dave beat me to it)
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Post by tfly on Mar 31, 2022 20:54:37 GMT 12
or I am sure you could strap a few JDAMs and ASSRAAM's on the big wing here   Looks like they are getting it prepared already! |
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Post by Chelsea57986 on Apr 1, 2022 7:08:40 GMT 12
If you want to do something, as Dave suggested on the last thread contact your local MP. That is the proactive thing to do ( maybe even email them the links for a few of these threads).
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ex
Flight Sergeant
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Post by ex on Apr 1, 2022 14:36:32 GMT 12
Nup, rather spend money on a few overprivileged officers to fly around the country in someone's else toys to "promote" RNZAF heritage
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bes1961
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by bes1961 on Apr 13, 2022 15:10:26 GMT 12
Anything that can carry effective weapons, that can find and destroy an enemy and come home safely. They should operate autonomously. The idea of sending men off to war is old fashioned. We should stop doing that.
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Post by flyinkiwi on Apr 13, 2022 15:34:37 GMT 12
The idea of sending men off to war is old fashioned. We should stop doing that.  |
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Post by shorty on Apr 13, 2022 21:51:56 GMT 12
You can teach a monkey how to ride a bike but you can't teach him how to fix it!
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Post by smithy on Jun 7, 2022 8:07:21 GMT 12
Haven't been here for quite awhile (as in 3 years) but thought I'd add my 2 rupees worth here...
These threads have popped up here ever since the forum started.
I was incredibly sad back in 2001 when Helen's government binned the Air Combat Wing of the RNZAF. Ever since then there's been discussions about bringing it back.
Sadly and I hate to be the harbinger of bad news but it's not going to happen. Apart from the cost, NZ doesn't have the support structure to bring back an air combat capability to the air force. You need people, support services and infrastructure to do this. Helen chucked this all out the window back in 2001. If you wanted to bring such a capability back you'd need to invest once again in the infrastructure to implement it but also to import the people to make it happen.
The worst thing with 2001's dissolution of our fast jet capability wasn't the loss of the aircraft themselves but the loss of the personnel and knowledge which maintained our combat capability.
Hypothetically we could get this back but it would be an enormous task, and one which would require more money and effort than I think a government of a small Pacific nation would be willing to pay, or undertake.
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Post by smithy on Jun 7, 2022 8:11:36 GMT 12
...BTW I now live in Norway so a small country (roughly the same size as NZ), albeit a wealthy one. Having Russia on the border has obviously highly influenced Norway's defence spending, and one of the reasons why, although small, they pack state of the art military equipment including aircraft.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 7, 2022 21:15:10 GMT 12
I was most interested to learn recently from Larry Olsen that when the RNZAF equipped with Canberras, the Vampires became relegated to only the training role and the Canberras were only used as medium to high level bombers. As a result the training in the low level strike role with rockets and guns that had been undertaken in the front line Vampires ceased. And the strike role was lost. It was some years later when the Vampires returned to front line duties that the strike role was once again reintroduced, and lots of pilots who'd never been trained in those methods now had to learn it. So in a smaller way, it has actually happened before, it seems. But back then we had politicians who actually understood defence responsibilities.
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Post by oj on Jun 7, 2022 22:28:32 GMT 12
It would take typically 15 years to get an experienced team of tradespeople and NCOs up to speed on a new strike type to the level of expertise that Ohakea once had with the vampires, Canberras and Skyhawks.
I mean to really get them "up on the step" with type (to use a flying-boat term).
To get error-free servicing performance and a mature modifications team established.
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Post by tbf2504 on Jun 8, 2022 9:37:02 GMT 12
In addition to the ground infrastructure including personnel, previous experience has shown that "strike" pilots became most proficient after around 6 - 8 years in the role. Again, major problems with obtaining that degree
of professionalism. Where do you get the instructors with that knowledge to train the newbies???
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Post by davidd on Jun 8, 2022 12:26:22 GMT 12
Do what they did in the old days? Request RAF (or RAAF) to loan a few experienced instructors (if they have any free!) and get them to bring along all the latest manuals, etc. (digital equivalents today) and any other special training equipment and other aids. In the old days, RNZAF often tried to make up duplicates (or locally inspired versions thereof) training aids (our governments sometimes balked at price of specialised training items), some of which proved to be quite useful, even if not the full answer. I think that second-hand items could sometimes be sourced overseas for considerably lower prices. That is how things were done in the early days of our Vampires, and then Canberras (more or less). Not really the ideal, although deploying units overseas (Cyprus, Singapore) and using hired (RAF) aircraft was a good method of cheating, using local RAF equipment and facilities, although there were obviously some limits as to how much you could rely on other governments generosity.
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Post by kiwirob on Jun 15, 2022 0:35:53 GMT 12
...BTW I now live in Norway so a small country (roughly the same size as NZ), albeit a wealthy one. Having Russia on the border has obviously highly influenced Norway's defence spending, and one of the reasons why, although small, they pack state of the art military equipment including aircraft. They might buy all the nice toys but they have a problem where they don't always buy the maintenance package to keep everything operational. It will be interesting to see what the Norwegian govt do now that there is a potential threat, will they up defense spending or not? |
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Post by tbf2504 on Jun 15, 2022 15:34:09 GMT 12
David, fine idea, but would depend on what type of strike aircraft we purchased. Would have to be compatible with what the RAF or RAAF was flying at the time.
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Post by davidd on Jun 16, 2022 9:21:34 GMT 12
Paul, so true - just didn't want to get down to specifics.
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Post by smithy on Jun 17, 2022 8:30:44 GMT 12
...BTW I now live in Norway so a small country (roughly the same size as NZ), albeit a wealthy one. Having Russia on the border has obviously highly influenced Norway's defence spending, and one of the reasons why, although small, they pack state of the art military equipment including aircraft. They might buy all the nice toys but they have a problem where they don't always buy the maintenance package to keep everything operational. It will be interesting to see what the Norwegian govt do now that there is a potential threat, will they up defense spending or not? They already have since the outbreak of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, partly to cover the large amount of ordnance being sent to Ukraine and partly to ensure the mobility of current assets in Norway. "Maintenance packages" are completely covered in all services. The only areas where they are not are with equipment which is nearing its expiration date - just like what was done with the F-16s over the last 4 to 5 years due to the F-35 replacement programme. |
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