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Post by yogi on Sept 11, 2009 21:15:36 GMT 12
seen it, thanks all the same. someone should foward that site to Mr. Mapp........... ;D |
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Post by oldnavy on Sept 12, 2009 8:52:10 GMT 12
Dave H said:
Hope you don't think I was rolling my eyes at you? My dig was at Phil! ;D
I think there may well have been some "Sir Sydney Camm" in the Hawk. The committee simply came later. Hawk was an excellent design for a single type replacement of both the Gnat and the Hunter, and a perfect lead in for the Lightning, Jag, Harrier, Bucc, Phantom and Tornado. The Mk 128 suits the RAF now looking at Typhoon and F35, the Mk127 is excellent as the F18 trainer and I understand the South Africans have configured a Mark as a Gripen trainer.
The Korean protagonists will also find Hawk elements in the T50 if they dig. It's a joint project with BAE.
On UAVs, not yet guys. It's to do with bandwidth. Where they are up to now is hype.
My "on thread" view is still for a jointly owned/manned F35 Squadron with the RAAF. Binny is in the press saying he wants 4 squadrons (100 jets) and he will definitely lay the ground work to keep the 24 Super Hornets as well. That kind of force is nearly half what Australia needs and therefore the biggest it has had for a generation. It will be the most potent air power capability since the RAAF was one of the biggest air forces in the world (1945). Small populations like Australia could always use help getting the bums in seats...even if some bums are Kiwi...even if the Kiwis put girlie bums in seats (because they did it first ;D). And you Kiwis really need somewhere to put those bums! Not having fighters in your Air Force is a crime.
There is so much sense in an ANZAC joint force I am surprised the govt to govt negotiations haven't started.
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Post by yogi on Sept 12, 2009 9:40:25 GMT 12
those f-35s are huge damn things.... in theory thats an excellent idea, but national pride (for what it is) may block that avenue.
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Post by flycookie on Sept 12, 2009 10:50:23 GMT 12
Yogi, I agree with the magnitude of all this, and the tortured path within. That's why I think a decent batch of latest-and-greatest Hawks - modded whichever way the RNZAF wants and needs - would be a do-able stepping stone to the heavyweight stuff. The F-35 production line is going to run for a long, long time, and the unit price will plummet as the run goes on.
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Post by phil82 on Sept 12, 2009 11:16:03 GMT 12
Dave H said: Hope you don't think I was rolling my eyes at you? My dig was at Phil! ;D . I think I might be the guilty "eye-roller", but rest assured Dave, there was no latent intent there: I haven't made seductive gestures to a bloke before, and in fact you would be the first, though to be honest, I don't think you've got the legs!  |
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Post by Naki on Sept 12, 2009 11:41:11 GMT 12
ahh no its a joint project with Lockheed Martin ..you will find bits of F-16 in it.
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Post by phil82 on Sept 12, 2009 11:43:04 GMT 12
Dave H said: Hope you don't think I was rolling my eyes at you? My dig was at Phil! ;D I think there may well have been some "Sir Sydney Camm" in the Hawk. The committee simply came later. Hawk was an excellent design for a single type replacement of both the Gnat and the Hunter, and a perfect lead in for the Lightning, Jag, Harrier, Bucc, Phantom and Tornado. The Mk 128 suits the RAF now looking at Typhoon and F35, the Mk127 is excellent as the F18 trainer and I understand the South Africans have configured a Mark as a Gripen trainer. The Korean protagonists will also find Hawk elements in the T50 if they dig. It's a joint project with BAE. On UAVs, not yet guys. It's to do with bandwidth. Where they are up to now is hype. My "on thread" view is still for a jointly owned/manned F35 Squadron with the RAAF. Binny is in the press saying he wants 4 squadrons (100 jets) and he will definitely lay the ground work to keep the 24 Super Hornets as well. That kind of force is nearly half what Australia needs and therefore the biggest it has had for a generation. It will be the most potent air power capability since the RAAF was one of the biggest air forces in the world (1945). Small populations like Australia could always use help getting the bums in seats...even if some bums are Kiwi...even if the Kiwis put girlie bums in seats (because they did it first ;D). And you Kiwis really need somewhere to put those bums! Not having fighters in your Air Force is a crime. There is so much sense in an ANZAC joint force I am surprised the govt to govt negotiations haven't started. I think you've got it in a nutshell: the ONLY way the RNZAF is ever likely to get its hands on a decent jet again, apart from the ex-pat Kiwis flying for the Red Sparrers and , in at least one instance, the Typhoon, is by way of some agreement with Australia on joint manning. NO NZ Government will commit to buying any of the dream machines being discussed here, for the very simple reason that whatever the cost, it would be too high, and neither the Nats nor Labour would make such a commitment. I'm not that convinced that the Australian Government would be into such an arrangement either, given their Defence Procurement is subject to so much more political interference. For my sins, I spent a number of years in Air Staff, or "Disneyland" as it was more commonly known, and I've been to Russell Office a few times in Canberra, and both systems seem to suffer the same sort of inertia brought about by political indifference. The will is there, but so is the "Can't" from Treasury! I also reached the conclusion that all the really sharp military minds, in all three services, were not necessarily those who reached the top layers, but those who left at the Wg Cmdr level out of sheer frustration at having to deal with politicians. It would be great if the RNZAF could opt for a joint deal with the Skippies, and it would work, but the bean-counters would kill it on this side of the Tasman. |
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Post by yogi on Sept 12, 2009 19:57:48 GMT 12
Dave H said: Hope you don't think I was rolling my eyes at you? My dig was at Phil! ;D I think there may well have been some "Sir Sydney Camm" in the Hawk. The committee simply came later. Hawk was an excellent design for a single type replacement of both the Gnat and the Hunter, and a perfect lead in for the Lightning, Jag, Harrier, Bucc, Phantom and Tornado. The Mk 128 suits the RAF now looking at Typhoon and F35, the Mk127 is excellent as the F18 trainer and I understand the South Africans have configured a Mark as a Gripen trainer. The Korean protagonists will also find Hawk elements in the T50 if they dig. It's a joint project with BAE. On UAVs, not yet guys. It's to do with bandwidth. Where they are up to now is hype. My "on thread" view is still for a jointly owned/manned F35 Squadron with the RAAF. Binny is in the press saying he wants 4 squadrons (100 jets) and he will definitely lay the ground work to keep the 24 Super Hornets as well. That kind of force is nearly half what Australia needs and therefore the biggest it has had for a generation. It will be the most potent air power capability since the RAAF was one of the biggest air forces in the world (1945). Small populations like Australia could always use help getting the bums in seats...even if some bums are Kiwi...even if the Kiwis put girlie bums in seats (because they did it first ;D). And you Kiwis really need somewhere to put those bums! Not having fighters in your Air Force is a crime. There is so much sense in an ANZAC joint force I am surprised the govt to govt negotiations haven't started. I think you've got it in a nutshell: the ONLY way the RNZAF is ever likely to get its hands on a decent jet again, apart from the ex-pat Kiwis flying for the Red Sparrers and , in at least one instance, the Typhoon, is by way of some agreement with Australia on joint manning. NO NZ Government will commit to buying any of the dream machines being discussed here, for the very simple reason that whatever the cost, it would be too high, and neither the Nats nor Labour would make such a commitment. I'm not that convinced that the Australian Government would be into such an arrangement either, given their Defence Procurement is subject to so much more political interference. For my sins, I spent a number of years in Air Staff, or "Disneyland" as it was more commonly known, and I've been to Russell Office a few times in Canberra, and both systems seem to suffer the same sort of inertia brought about by political indifference. The will is there, but so is the "Can't" from Treasury! I also reached the conclusion that all the really sharp military minds, in all three services, were not necessarily those who reached the top layers, but those who left at the Wg Cmdr level out of sheer frustration at having to deal with politicians. It would be great if the RNZAF could opt for a joint deal with the Skippies, and it would work, but the bean-counters would kill it on this side of the Tasman. In the immediate future I think yes, you are right. But perhaps the majority of posters are basing their opinions on the immediate future (say 3-7 years?) to be honest I am thinking a bit further down the track, maybe 10-15+ years. I get the distinct impression that by this time New Zealands foreign policy will have changed quite a lot and will probably begin to come in line with the australians and americans (and more than likely this will be because of political pressure from the australians constantly reminding us we need to contribute more) and then it will be deemed necessary for us to ramp up our defence capabilities. The way things are going in the pacific I am quite certain this will happen. Anyway. back to my point; Now we find ourselves in the position of having a substantially increased (maybe.. hmmm... 2.0 vs 0.5!!!!! haha) budget, and of course the RNZAF's direction will be changed from a peace keeping/logistical (or whatever the main focus is right now..) "force" to an actual combat capable force thus requiring a capable fighter/bomber to do the job. Anyhow you guys probably dont want me ramming my ideas down your throats and it's off topic anyway! I think hawks would absolotely be a fantastic lead in fighter/trainer. and the great thing about the hawk is its BAE... the gripen is part bae.. aah.. I think? surely there would be some sharing of systems there? haha! |
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Post by oldnavy on Sept 12, 2009 23:24:26 GMT 12
On my comment about Hawk content and BAE jointly involved with the T-50, Naki said:
Good spot. My mistake, I was going on my time in BAE when the Hawk boys were jointly working on the T-50 project. Now it seems they are only suppliers and not joint partners in that they are only responsible for the T-50 flying control system along with the HUD. There are several references on the web giving the detail, and none of them indicate any Hawk content. Even with that said, you'd be hard pressed in a global sense to find a contemporary western fighter/jet trainer design that does not have BAE content.
So many great ideas coming up here! Hope someone is writing it all to the pollies! Get some jets for the RNZAF please. ;D
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Post by flycookie on Sept 13, 2009 10:55:00 GMT 12
Anyhow you guys probably dont want me ramming my ideas down your throats and it's off topic anyway! Good stuff, Yogi! Don't worry about straying off the thread's core - it's a bigger subject that just playing armchair Air Marshall and jotting down a wish list of aeroplanes. Your tangential points are apposite and well made. Phil, sorry to hear about all the clever clogs bailing out of service careers due to effects of proximity to their political masters. Not the first time I've heard that, alas. |
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Post by phil82 on Sept 13, 2009 11:23:19 GMT 12
Anyhow you guys probably dont want me ramming my ideas down your throats and it's off topic anyway! Good stuff, Yogi! Don't worry about straying off the thread's core - it's a bigger subject that just playing armchair Air Marshall and jotting down a wish list of aeroplanes. Your tangential points are apposite and well made. Phil, sorry to hear about all the clever clogs bailing out of service careers due to effects of proximity to their political masters. Not the first time I've heard that, alas. It is true of all organisational structures: the best don't neccessarily rise to the top. I could name a few very senior people who, had you asked them when they were Junior Officers, that is Flt and below, what their plans would be once they became CAS and never, in their wildest dreams, would they have considered it a possibility. That's not to say they didn't do a good job, but in my experience the higher you go the harder it is to make any real difference. The reality is that, in the current situation, no air force chief has the wherewithall to decide, for example, let's resurrect the F16 deal. The infrastructure isn't there, and though the aircraft are, there is no money in the budget to fly them, fuel them service them, or do anything other than sell them!
Given we have the birds, but no one to service them or fly them, there is as much chance of the NZ Government buying new aircraft as there is of the All Blacks winning the world Cup! Which is no chance after last night's performance!
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Post by fletcherfu24 on Sept 13, 2009 11:28:19 GMT 12
Put me down for Cresco's for the main strke aircraft.We build them here,they can fly off any one of the thousands of airstrips in NZ,unlike your pretty boy jet fighters.
Arm them up with rockets,guns and napalm and its pretty unlikely anyone will want to tangle with NZ in the future.
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Post by yogi on Sept 13, 2009 19:38:11 GMT 12
Put me down for Cresco's for the main strke aircraft.We build them here,they can fly off any one of the thousands of airstrips in NZ,unlike your pretty boy jet fighters. Arm them up with rockets,guns and napalm and its pretty unlikely anyone will want to tangle with NZ in the future. well gee, why dont we just swap our maccis for the argies pucaras haha |
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Post by flyinkiwi on Sept 14, 2009 9:59:38 GMT 12
In the immediate future I think yes, you are right. But perhaps the majority of posters are basing their opinions on the immediate future (say 3-7 years?) to be honest I am thinking a bit further down the track, maybe 10-15+ years. I get the distinct impression that by this time New Zealands foreign policy will have changed quite a lot and will probably begin to come in line with the australians and americans (and more than likely this will be because of political pressure from the australians constantly reminding us we need to contribute more) and then it will be deemed necessary for us to ramp up our defence capabilities. The way things are going in the pacific I am quite certain this will happen. Anyway. back to my point; Now we find ourselves in the position of having a substantially increased (maybe.. hmmm... 2.0 vs 0.5!!!!! haha) budget, and of course the RNZAF's direction will be changed from a peace keeping/logistical (or whatever the main focus is right now..) "force" to an actual combat capable force thus requiring a capable fighter/bomber to do the job. Anyhow you guys probably dont want me ramming my ideas down your throats and it's off topic anyway! I think hawks would absolotely be a fantastic lead in fighter/trainer. and the great thing about the hawk is its BAE... the gripen is part bae.. aah.. I think? surely there would be some sharing of systems there? haha! NZ has a head in the sand philosophy when it comes to defense. The only way I can see such a radical change in defense policy as you suggest is a major incident occurring in the South Pacific which has Joe Public screaming at the politicians for something to be done. At the risk of going waaay off topic here's a possible scenario: Fiji becomes even more unstable as civil unrest grows. Protests turn violent as the ethnic Fijian minority begin to actively discriminate against the Fijian Indian population. Seeing this occurring half a world away, a member of the Indian parliament sees an opportunity and begins agitating for emancipation of his brothers and sisters. After the Fijian government respond to political overtures with sabre rattling, the Indian parliament hand matters over to the Indian military with orders to conduct an evacuation of ethnic Indians from the country. This has been exactly what the Indian admiralty have been waiting for, a chance to fully test their new blue water capability. After Australia gets wind that a rather powerful fleet is heading their way, things escalate despite the Indians repeated assurances that they are not intending any hostile actions towards their Australian friends. After Malaysia and Indonesia deny the Indian fleet access through their territorial waters, the fleet plies south around Australia with a plan to sail up through the Tasman Sea on their way to Fiji. The RNZN sorties Te Kaha to shadow the fleet to ensure that they do not encroach on our territorial waters, but a navigational error on the part of the Indian navy puts them within the NZEEC. After receiving a radio warning from Te Kaha, the Indian fleet moves out of the zone, but this is erroneously reported as an aggressive act and is all over the news media. Racial tensions between Fijian and Indian populations living in Australia and NZ rise. Despite the Govt and the Green party coming out publicly united to quell the unrest, like a pit bull the NZ public has got their teeth into the matter and won't let go. Defense ceases to be the political red headed step child it has been in the last 40 years and becomes the number 1 topic in the public consciousness. In a climate like that, the Ministry of Defense is given a political mandate to reequip our defense forces. Too little too late? In this scenario, yes. But NZers have long memories and a direct threat to our sovereignty might be what we need to bring our strategic defense spending up to what it should be. I think that NZ's military situation today would look quite different had the Japanese bombed NZ as they did Darwin in WW2. Please note that in my scenario I have glossed over any response by the Australians (and you can bet an Esky full of tinnies there would be a military response). But hey, it's just a work of fiction. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 14, 2009 13:38:23 GMT 12
The Chinese are building supposedly top class fighter aircraft now, why don't we get some from them under the free trade agreement? After all, a huge percentage of NZ's population that the NZDF is charged to protect are now Chinese citizens
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Post by yogi on Sept 14, 2009 22:04:43 GMT 12
The Chinese are building supposedly top class fighter aircraft now, why don't we get some from them under the free trade agreement? After all, a huge percentage of NZ's population that the NZDF is charged to protect are now Chinese citizens mm yes but the commies (dont kid yourself... they are still commies!! lol) arent really our best friends if you consider political alignment and all that jargon eh? flyinkiwi - That was a very well thought out scenario. However I get the feeling that it is more likely to be chinese expansionism or threat thereof that will cause a change in policy in the not too distant future.... Thoughts?? |
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Post by John L on Sept 16, 2009 17:21:36 GMT 12
flyinkiwi - That was a very well thought out scenario. However I get the feeling that it is more likely to be chinese expansionism or threat thereof that will cause a change in policy in the not too distant future.... Thoughts?? This is a possibility, but, most threats seem to come out of nowhere and often in ways that are not covered by conventional strategic reasoning - flyingkiwis postulation may well be more accurate than a more conventional one..... Not sure how "modern" current Chinese strike planes are - what I saw flying over Beijing on Sunday looked like a Mig 23/27 or clone and a Badger type aircraft! |
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Post by corsair67 on Sept 16, 2009 17:28:24 GMT 12
I can't quite see the Kiwi roundel looking any good on this kind of thing -  |
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Post by Barnsey on Sept 16, 2009 17:36:55 GMT 12
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Post by flyjoe180 on Sept 16, 2009 18:24:31 GMT 12
The J10 fighter looks like a Typhoon/Rafalle rip off.
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