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Post by skyhawkdon on May 10, 2012 15:24:09 GMT 12
...and that is why we should and will get the FMS supported C-130J and probably sooner than we think...
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Post by beagle on May 10, 2012 16:44:32 GMT 12
A few years back there were some ad's which went. "The only replacement for a Hercules is new Hercules" But back then there were not many real options and the requirements for their use has changed.
C130J. same basic design, moderm cockpit, modern engines, same speed, slight increase in range, an extra few pallets with stretched model, not NH90 capable.
A400. modern design, EADS very keen for new buyers, more speed, more range, NH90 capable, can be used for both tactical and strategic transport,
and when used in conjunction with C295's will provide full transport needs for this country
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Post by ngatimozart on May 10, 2012 17:20:24 GMT 12
Yep I see and I stand corrected. Hopefully our lot will go with it now and through the FMS because that we way get exactly same kit as RAAF including the full self protection measures. Actually if our lot do decide to buy a twin engined transport a very good probability it will be the C27J now because of the defence purchasing agreement between NZ & Australia. I cannot see the logic of a A400 / C130J combo. Be more of a A400 / C27J combo which would give far more capability and versatility. The A400 is NH90 and NZLAV capable. IMHO buying C130J with the A400 would be a bit of overkill because the problem of C130's doing small lifts still wouldn't been addressed, just compounded.
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Post by ngatimozart on May 10, 2012 17:22:49 GMT 12
Do I see some B350's coming from the RAAF coming our way Have you got some info or rumours to expand upon Beagle?
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Post by beagle on May 10, 2012 17:32:00 GMT 12
The B350's were brand new, pretty sure they were, and were only used as an interim aircraft till the Bou replacement was sorted. But it looks like from the report tat these C27's are the USAF ones and the ADF will be going through Alenia for a seperate support contract.
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Post by beagle on May 10, 2012 17:34:29 GMT 12
Yep I see and I stand corrected. Hopefully our lot will go with it now and through the FMS because that we way get exactly same kit as RAAF including the full self protection measures. Actually if our lot do decide to buy a twin engined transport a very good probability it will be the C27J now because of the defence purchasing agreement between NZ & Australia. I cannot see the logic of a A400 / C130J combo. Be more of a A400 / C27J combo which would give far more capability and versatility. The A400 is NH90 and NZLAV capable. IMHO buying C130J with the A400 would be a bit of overkill because the problem of C130's doing small lifts still wouldn't been addressed, just compounded. The only reason I went for the A400 / C295 combo was thinking of cost regards C27, actually not sure what the cost differences would be for 295/C27, but with now latest news from aussie then A400, C27 would be good
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Post by ZacYates on May 10, 2012 17:38:06 GMT 12
I didn't even know we were looking to replace the current Herks! You learn something new every day.
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Post by beagle on May 10, 2012 18:06:56 GMT 12
Probably been on the cards for 10 years but decided as per normal as we are Kiwis that we could do a late life up grade at low cost. Bit of a debarcle that turned out for a while.
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Post by Chris F on May 10, 2012 18:28:30 GMT 12
I am with Don on this one....current Hercules for J model Herules on a one for one basis. I am sure there will be plenty of pages of speculation and wish lists.....but I think it will be a no brainier. As for the Kingairs my speculation will be these will replaced with Beechcraft B350 Kingairs on a one for one basis along with 6/8 Beechcraft T-6c Texan II purchased either outright or roll over lease. One thing for sure I hope someone writes a good book on both the Hercules and Huey's......a good book like Don's Skyhawk book.
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Post by ngatimozart on May 10, 2012 20:39:30 GMT 12
The B350's were brand new, pretty sure they were, and were only used as an interim aircraft till the Bou replacement was sorted. But it looks like from the report tat these C27's are the USAF ones and the ADF will be going through Alenia for a seperate support contract. No the 27s will not be any of the USAF ones, especially at $1.4 billion for 10 when $900 billion was quoted late last year. So for that reason and the fact the USAF won't get one cent, nor are they allowed to spend one cent upon divesting or retiring or plan such, this will be a contract with L3 and Alenia via FMS. From what I was reading on the other place I lurk, since the RAAF will be retiring their C130H fleet by the end of 2012, the RAAF wiill be giving their B350's a real hiding doing small transport stuff until the 27s become IOC and that is 2016. So we won't be getting any of those 350s.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 20:45:25 GMT 12
"$900 billion" that's a tad pricey for some C-27J's haha
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Post by beagle on May 10, 2012 21:08:22 GMT 12
and we thought we had the deal of the century with the F16's.
yeah sorry not fully up with the FMS but yes got ya.
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Post by ngatimozart on May 10, 2012 21:09:53 GMT 12
Yep and its got more pricey by half a billion in a six month period. And people complain about us paying NZ$770 million for 9 NH90s.
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Post by Calum on May 10, 2012 21:17:23 GMT 12
The B350's were brand new, pretty sure they were, and were only used as an interim aircraft till the Bou replacement was sorted. But it looks like from the report tat these C27's are the USAF ones and the ADF will be going through Alenia for a seperate support contract. IMHO they'll be new builds for the following reasons 1. Aliena won't support the current US fleet if sold via FMS but will support other new build aircraft sold via FMS. 2. The Senate hasn't approved the USAF's plan to get rid of them, the ANG want to keep them (as does the Army want someone to keep them) 3. The USCG are also interested in them Maybe this should be the Aussie Section
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Post by beagle on May 10, 2012 21:17:27 GMT 12
some guy at L3 or Alenia this afternoon just put an order in for his new ferrari
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Post by Calum on May 10, 2012 22:03:08 GMT 12
Back to the RNZAF.. If the decision is made now then you just can't buy the A400. it's barely certified (no Military Type Certificate) and so so unproven. Plus being European, spares will be non existent and expensive. But if the decision is 5-6 years away then A400 becomes a contender. Despite my disdain for "Euro Trash" I concede it sits nicely between the C-130J-30 and the C-17 (which the RNZAF can't afford). What this really comes down to is what exactly are the RNZAF's requirements. The RNZAF can write requirements that rule out the C-130J (like being able to carry a NH-90, ).
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Post by ngatimozart on May 11, 2012 11:49:17 GMT 12
Back to the RNZAF.. If the decision is made now then you just can't buy the A400. it's barely certified (no Military Type Certificate) and so so unproven. Plus being European, spares will be non existent and expensive. But if the decision is 5-6 years away then A400 becomes a contender. Despite my disdain for "Euro Trash" I concede it sits nicely between the C-130J-30 and the C-17 (which the RNZAF can't afford). What this really comes down to is what exactly are the RNZAF's requirements. The RNZAF can write requirements that rule out the C-130J (like being able to carry a NH-90, ). And there you have it in a nutshell. The RMAF are getting their first of four A400 in January 2015 with the order value at US$1.1billion and includes training and integrated logistics support services. The Malaysians are using them to supplement their C130s. Considering the DWP is due in 2015 and the transport study has already started then if the NZG can pick up a deal similar to the Malaysians would be good. To get around the spares do what we did with the NH90 and buy an attritional airframe. From what I understand the A400 Grizzly will go IOC in 2013.
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Post by meo4 on May 11, 2012 14:00:50 GMT 12
It's still early days some of these replacement projects occur over a decade influenced by white papers , governments of day, economic outlook. Usually come up with 5 options 1st lost or degrade of capability which they try to avoid and would only happen in Greece type circumstances and 5 being top of the line full capabilities maximum expenditure with 3 being some where in between. In this project I would say the A400M would be the 4/5 and the C130J around 3. With rising cost of military hardware and MOD keeping tabs on affordability Should go for 3 maybe 4 in this current climate would probably be a 2 /3 . Basically limited C130J with maximum use out of current C130LEP before replacement.
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Post by beagle on May 11, 2012 17:31:55 GMT 12
Pretty sure Germany are looking at selling some of their first arrivals. They have 53 firm with 7 options which we could pick up in a deal with EADS
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Post by skywarrior on May 11, 2012 19:44:33 GMT 12
I can't really see the requirement to transport the NH90 being a very high priority. Because realistically how often is that going to happen? Im pretty sure we would just get the aussies to transport them as we do now with the hueys. A C-130J replacement would be far more sensible. We already have the infastructure to support them, both the Air Force and Safe Air. The transition from LEP to J would be relatively quick and painless. You can put money on it that the A400 is going to be overpriced and problem plagued when it enters service. Firstly, because its european. Secondly, the program is already years delayed and way over budget (some nations have pulled out). And lastly its a completely new design that is unproven anywhere and in any combat theatre. NZ cant afford to get involved in something like that. The C130J is pretty much the same old workhorse thats being doing its thing since the late 50s. Nothing can replace it.
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