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Post by luke6745 on Jan 27, 2012 22:16:14 GMT 12
Is Wayne Mapp no longer the Minister of Defence? He quit parliament. Maggie Barry now holds his electorate I believe. |
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Post by ngatimozart on Jan 27, 2012 22:51:16 GMT 12
Is Wayne Mapp no longer the Minister of Defence? If we only need 4-6 aircraft but they are cheap, we should purchase 10. Like the Andover deal. They won't be as cheap as the Andovers were Dave. The Andovers were fairly well used by the time they wore the kiwi roundel and these ones are only three years old with first US delivery on 25/9/2008 (Wikipedia). It was only late last year first few were sortied to Afghanistan. Wikipedia doesn't say how many the USAF have on charge, only saying that the Air National Guard had received four by September 2010 and orders for 38 were anticipated. So yes if our Minister gets the hint and acts upon it then we might get a really good deal. I would think that L3 will be panicking about now. Our PM is a reasonably shrewd merchant banker so he would see advantages in the deal. As an aside the RAN A109s (3) are coming off lease soonish and the owners will be looking for some income so it could be an idea to make an offer to purchase. Again we might get a good buy and they are relatively new helos. They would go good operating off OPVs if they are marinised. Am not sure if they are or not. |
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Post by adzze on Jan 27, 2012 23:04:44 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 27, 2012 23:21:14 GMT 12
Thanks Luke, I had no idea Mapp was gone. Damn, there goes the one politician who understood aviation...
No. nothing will be as cheap as the Andovers these days. What I meant was that if a good deal can be made they should look to the future needs and not just now, and grab as much as they can get. The popluation is growing, and the weather and seismic conditions have changed a lot around the nation and the Pacific and I think good utility aircraft are a big gap in current RNZAF line up to respond to needs of people in disasters and also operate with the Army and other services. Making sure we have enough to do the job for the next 30-40 years would be prudent. Buying just a couple would seem stupid.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 27, 2012 23:24:32 GMT 12
Actually I take that back a little, looking at adzze's link, Jonathon Coleman was in the Royal Flying Doctor Service so maybe he knows a bit about aviation, hopefully.
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Post by ngatimozart on Jan 28, 2012 16:35:46 GMT 12
Coleman has an MBA too. Since he has worked for the RFDS he should have a good sense of what aviation can do, but that doesn't gaurantee anything. I was going to say that NZ hasn't seismically changed because it always has been a very geologically active place and then I reminded myself I'm used to thinking in long time spans which many people aren't. The ChCh quakes have focussed our attention on seismic activities and natural hazards. That's a good thing and Dave has alluded to some of the issues that the C27J would address because not everywhere can take a C130H, be it in NZ, or in the South Pacific, or elsewhere. I still think 4 - 6 would be the optimal number of aircraft, although if we had 10 and deployed them to Afghan we could have made good money off ISAF doing supply runs  because they haven't got anything in that size, and have been using CH47 Chinooks or C130s. However, we haven't and that is moot. The rumour is that the Hawker Beechcraft 350i Special will be the aircraft picked for the Advanced Multi Engine Training and for EEZ and basic Maritime Patrol because it can do both. So that reduces number of twin engined air lifters required, because they'll use the beechcraft for some VIP as well, like they do with the B200 now. Speaking of which, same rumour says that that lease will be extended until decision made about the Advanced Multi Engine Training & EEZ & basic Maritime Patrol. So that was why tenders was put on GETS; so all the boxes could be ticked on paperwork. If we want the NZG to take advantage of the USAF decision about the C27J, we need to pressure the Minister and advocate for it. That way he'll get the message. We all sit & whinge about the NZG not giving the RNZAF the kit, well here's a chance to stir the pot and do something. I've sent my email. Have you? |
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Post by luke6745 on Jan 28, 2012 20:05:59 GMT 12
So are they planning on using these new King Airs on advanced training? Or are looking at getting something like Tucanos?
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Post by ngatimozart on Jan 28, 2012 22:07:13 GMT 12
No the King Airs are for multi engine training, VIP transport and EEZ maritime patrol. The Tucanos or similar are for advanced single engined training, bridging the gap between the CT4Es and all the other gas turbine stuff we now have.
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Post by ErrolC on May 11, 2012 13:28:48 GMT 12
Some interesting info on current C-27 and C-295 pricing and delivery times:, with Ben Sandilands reporting on Airbus's PR re Aussie Caribou replacement decision: blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/05/11/airbus-lashes-out-tenderly-over-caribou-replacement/Airbus Military proposed the C-295 aircraft as the Caribou replacement. The C-295, like the C-27J, has recognised strengths and weaknesses. The C-295 is the world’s most popular battlefield airlifter, with global sales at 100 units. It is cheaper to buy and operate than the C-27J. For the RAAF’s fleet of 10 Battlefield Airlifters, a C-295 purchase, offered at 400 million AUD would have provided savings of $1 billion compared to the C-27J FMS.
...
It should also be noted that Australia has committed $1.4 billion to an aircraft that will be delivered in 2015 only, representing a three year time gap. Airbus Military is of the opinion a competition could have been done in this period, complying with the same schedule, as the C295 could be available in a six months time period. |
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Post by ngatimozart on May 11, 2012 17:21:55 GMT 12
This from Flight Global 23rd Dec 2011.
The proposed package includes the 10 aircraft and 23 Rolls Royce AE2100D2 engines. Defensive systems include 12 BAE Systems AAR-47A (V) 2 missile warning systems, 12 ALE-47 airborne countermeasures systems, and 12 Northrop Grumman APR-39B radar warning receivers.
Northrop Grumman would also provide 12 sets of the APN-241 Tactical Transport Radar, which offers a high resolution synthetic aperture radar (SAR) mapping mode.
The $950 million deal also includes other equipment, communications gear, and services related to the acquisition.
However I am trying to figure out how come the price has risen US$500 million in six months. We could buy another eight NH90s for that. I think that question is being asked a lot to in Australia. Is this the whole of life costs or what? If US140 million per aircraft is the going rate then maybe we look elsewhere especially when they are being supplied to the USAF at US$31 million per aircraft fly away. Something stinks a bit here. You can't tell me that that spares training etc., is US$110 million per aircraft. The USAF that has been bandied around is apparently inclusive of everything.
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Post by ngatimozart on May 16, 2013 15:34:01 GMT 12
I read somewhere, I think it was in Australia Defence Review, that Airbus Military had been visiting the Asia Pacific Region and talking to the Australian and NZ govts about how the A400M would suit their needs. So since NZDF has got a CapEx increase of 83% to $583 million today I suppose that could buy us two if you include the flash gallery so 40 Sqn can dine in style like 5 Sqn ;D Interestingly enough Airbus Military reckon they will sell 400 units, and that the next production slots occur in 2018.
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Post by flyinkiwi on May 16, 2013 16:06:25 GMT 12
It seems the most closely guarded secret of all is, "how much does that piece of military hardware cost for real?" ;D ;D ;D
Thinking realistically about where this money is earmarked, it seems it will be used for the various upgrade and remedial projects the MoD have underway at the moment.
I can't see NZ buying A400M's until they've been around the block a while and are a known entity with regards to in service costs and maintenance pipelines. So we're stuck with the C-130H's for a little while longer, but procuring a few more Seasprite airframes might be on the cards.
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Post by ngatimozart on May 16, 2013 17:17:37 GMT 12
The Seasprite contract has been signed and sealed - Kaman announced it on the 8th May. NZDF is doing an air transport study which is due to be completed next year in time to be included in the 2015 DWP. Before the ChCh quakes I believe the plan was to look at start replacing the the current C130s around 2018 / 19. There are some options available and combinations that may be attractive in different aspects. Apparently Wayne Mapp was a fan of the A400M, but his views no longer count. To soon to really start reading the tea leaves although I have my favourite combination. I agree a lot of this extra money will be earmarked for upgrading and remedial projects. It's good to see though.
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Post by beagle on May 16, 2013 17:18:35 GMT 12
I read somewhere, I think it was in Australia Defence Review, that Airbus Military had been visiting the Asia Pacific Region and talking to the Australian and NZ govts about how the A400M would suit their needs. So since NZDF has got a CapEx increase of 83% to $583 million today I suppose that could buy us two if you include the flash gallery so 40 Sqn can dine in style like 5 Sqn ;D Interestingly enough Airbus Military reckon they will sell 400 units, and that the next production slots occur in 2018. flash galley, just looking for images. none yet, any site advice for them |
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Post by ngatimozart on May 16, 2013 17:24:04 GMT 12
Well you'd think being French and all they'd include a flash galley anyway so the French Air Force can dine on escargot etc., whilst they fly their missions. Maybe it's a mod that has to be seen to allez allez, especially if said aircraft ever enters NZ service ;D ;D
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Post by Calum on May 23, 2013 9:27:54 GMT 12
On paper the A-400 looks good for NZ, bigger than a C-130J which is the only other serious contender.
It's the cost of purchase and more importanty the cost of operating it that would be of concern. My experience (primarily with French Helicopters and French Avionics OEM’s), is that they aren’t been good at that.
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Post by lesterpk on May 23, 2013 13:46:10 GMT 12
Spare parts supply and tooling is not done well by the French company the supplies some of our gear. Ordered $10K worth of tooling back in February, first bit arrived yesterday, the rest due in August.
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Post by ngatimozart on May 23, 2013 15:37:47 GMT 12
I think that may be the reason for the 9th NH90. You do raise some valid points and it'll be interesting how they get around the issue if they go with the A400.
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Post by beagle on May 23, 2013 17:45:57 GMT 12
They will just order one extra then pull it down for spares.
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Post by ngatimozart on May 23, 2013 22:11:03 GMT 12
They will just order one extra then pull it down for spares. Yep I thought about that but it'd be damn near twice the price of a NH90 & govt is very cost adverse. But I suppose when you think about it, is it a cheaper option than a spares package? I think on the face of it when you take every thing into account it would be especially after our Sprite experience. Theoretically it should the platform(s) that is (are) the best suited for NZDFs needs. However in the real world (NZ) this is not necessarilly the case and cost can be the dominate factor. Personally I think going to the C130J on its own would be a mistake, because it would not meet all our requirements. For example can't fit an NH90 in it so can't do really do strategic air lift in it. But on the other side how many times would we need to air lift the NH90s? |
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because they haven't got anything in that size, and have been using CH47 Chinooks or C130s. However, we haven't and that is moot. 
