Transport Fleet replacement

[ngatimozart]

The Aussies are buying 10 C27J Spartans plus support packages for US950 million through the US Defence Acquisition Program. This is the link www.defencetalk.com/australia-to-buy-c-27j-aircraft-and-related-support-39093/ I would think that now that they have finally made a decision that if is decided that the RNZAF is to finally have an Andover replacement as a battlefield lifter then they might go for the C27J keeping compatibility and interoperability with the Aussies.

[beagle]

mm hadn't heard or seen that one. I knew they had asked for costings etc plus the same for the C-295, but that was only in the last few months.
at long last they might have something to replace those Bou's

[beagle]

Just thought of something. If they get the nod and get these C-27's, then the brand new B350's they got as an interim could be coming this way.
very interesting.........

[ngatimozart]

I lurk on another forum and a few months back the thoughts were that Beechcraft they were looking at was the B350 MP with an ER capability. I was trying to find the link from back then but I can't. Anyway this is the link to the Hawker Beechcraft Military page: www.hawkerbeechcraft.com/military_and_special_mission/maritime_patrol.aspx

I'm not surprised by the Aussie buy of the C27 because it was apparently what the RAAF wanted. Am quite surprised by the suddeness though because the IIRC A8000 Bou replacement plan said decision wouldn't be made until 2012/13 year. But good that they finally have made decision because it's taken them a very long time.

[luke6745]

I've just had a thought - (please treat this as hypothetical)

If 42 Squadron has King Airs/CN-235s then where do we put the new turboprop advanced trainers?

If we were to get Super-Tucanos as the advanced trainers would we end up with another squadron? Could 14 Squadron rise from the ashes?

Just a thought.

[htbrst]

Dec 21, 2011 20:13:41 GMT 12 ngatimozart said:

The Aussies are buying 10 C27J Spartans plus support packages for US950 million through the US Defence Acquisition Program. This is the link www.defencetalk.com/australia-to-buy-c-27j-aircraft-and-related-support-39093/ I would think that now that they have finally made a decision that if is decided that the RNZAF is to finally have an Andover replacement as a battlefield lifter then they might go for the C27J keeping compatibility and interoperability with the Aussies.

Thats not is buying at all - congress has to be given prior notice of possible sales in case they come off, you will see plenty of these notices going to congress and not actually turn out.

Note the first line of the report :

"The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Dec. 16 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Australia for 10 C-27J aircraft"

It may still come off, but it matches the timeline of 2012/13 you were expecting for an actual decision to be made by Australia.

[ngatimozart]

Yep point, but in the case of Australia that is a mere formality now given that Australia has the same status as the UK in defence relationship. I would think this will go through reasonably quick based on how the C17 and Shornet purchases have gone. There is also talk on another forum of the USAF playing interservice politics with the US Army over battlefield lift and the Spartan in particular. The USAF have been given control of the program and thoughts are that since they didn't like it from the start they will shut it down. Much like Microsofts Embrace, Extend, Extinguish strategy of getting rid of competitors when you feel threatened.

[ngatimozart]

Actually another thought. Wonder if our bunch of pollies have given thought to tacking an order of say 6 onto end of Australian order with exact same fit out and of course would need the ops sim etc.

[Calum]

Dec 21, 2011 20:13:41 GMT 12 ngatimozart said:

The Aussies are buying 10 C27J Spartans plus support packages for US950 million through the US Defence Acquisition Program. This is the link www.defencetalk.com/australia-to-buy-c-27j-aircraft-and-related-support-39093/ I would think that now that they have finally made a decision that if is decided that the RNZAF is to finally have an Andover replacement as a battlefield lifter then they might go for the C27J keeping compatibility and interoperability with the Aussies.

From what I understood they've only asked for a price due tot he FMS production line closing. They have also asked for pricing on the C -295

That said this was a month or so back and this report is dated 21 Dec 11

[adzze]

There's been some discussion on another forum about the potential for the Kawasaki C-2 as a future alternative to the A400 or C-130J for the RNZAF.

It compares favourably to the A400 on performance and cost, can operate from short runways, and recently Japan's export rules on arms sales have been relaxed:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_C-2

[ngatimozart]

Having read comments on the other forum, I think the C2 could be a good contendor. Also the fact that it would share some commonality with the Kawasaki XP-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_P-1) could make it attractive to NZ because then would have 2 major platforms with same or similar components; especially as we are extremely cost sensitive. One issue I have with the PX-1 would be the choice of engines so I would think that if RNZAF acquired both types they would prefer same power plants, being the GE CF6 which is a proven engine. Aside from that, because the Japanese have relaxed their military export laws and they are said to be able to produce the C2 cheaper than any equivalent, plus their reputation for high quality it would be wise to include it in any air transport request for information. There are also other issues like the A400M pricing itself out of the market and European logistical support. Japan is closer and it might be a politically astute move for the NZG to purchase the C2and maybe the PX-1 if it comesto fruition.

[kiwirico]

Reading all this.... I wonder how serious is the chance to see additional transport aircraft/trainers into RNZAF within... let say 5 years?

Cheers all there,

KiwiRico

[beagle]

Rip into the oil exploration as per the weekend papers etc and we will get anything we want.

[tfly]

Interesting point made by Beagle if the oil deposits are as reported in the Media how do we propose to protect our interests in a resource hungry world? After all the USA have already stated their future focus is to be the Pacific region (and I'm sure they aren't the only ones!). Maybe this should be developed into a separate thread?

[ngatimozart]

It'd be good in theory if we could rip into the oil. It's speculated that with whats thought to be in the Southern Basin and in other areas would make the NZ$ a petro dollar. Addon whats been claimed in the weekend papers, then a very qualified maybe. However the real trick is for our bunch of pollies to negotiate a deal where NZ Inc gets real money out of the oil, not just paltry returns with 95+% of the money going to the oil companies overseas. Second issue is the environmental protections that will have to be built in. After Rena, NZ public are more environmentally conscious, which means political to a pollie.

Remembering basic environmental geology (from about 20 years ago), apparently general rule is that anywhere there are plate boundaries there should be deposits of heavy minerals like gold, uranium and silver etc., plus hydrocarbons (oil & gas etc.). In Fiordland there are gold and uranium deposits. The gold is hard to get at and uranium a political liability. Also both are in a World Heritage Park and at moment even if could mine it, would probably be very dicey economically. The matrix rock (rock minerals are in) is one of the hardest in the world and it is only rock ever to stall a tunneling machine (2nd Manapouri discharge Tunnel 2004).

Going back to question of how to protect these resources, unfortunately we have two major political parties who adhere to the neoliberal and neoconservative ideals of getting rid of as much responsibility as possible. Defence is not seen as a necessity and in a way a drain on government resources. Their basic philosophy is that the market will take care of everything and that any form of regulation of the market is undesireable. So a strong belief in self regualtion which has lead the the 2007 banking collapse and economic troubles since then. Even in the face of such failures of their methodologies they won't change and so that is why NZDF and hence RNZAF is grossly underfunded.

Most of the current pollies in parliament adhere to that and they will all think, neat we got all these riches and nek minute they're gone because the pollies never protected them because of a misplaced trust in the "honesty"of the market and didn't give NZDF the resources to protect this new wealth.

[yogi]

I envision that within the next 10-15 years we will have considerable pressure applied to us by both the australian and american goverments to get in line and stop dragging the chain in defence.
At that point things will change, and probably in a hurry.

[Deleted]

"dragging the chain in defence."
By that you mean?
A- Get our arse into gear and build it up.
B- Combine our forces with aussie?

[luke6745]

Jan 18, 2012 20:15:53 GMT 12 @rnzaffan said:

"dragging the chain in defence."
By that you mean?
A- Get our arse into gear and build it up.
B- Combine our forces with aussie?

Defiantly the former.

[ngatimozart]

The USAF is dis-establishing its C27J Spartan Fleet in a cost cutting measure. www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pentagon-slashes-fighters-squadrons-airlifters-in-new-budget-proposal-367457/ This is where a canny government could get a good deal if it was smart enough. We would only need 4 - 6 aircraft and we could get them under the FMS program. If we were real smart we would do a deal with the USAF to purchase all their spares, tech manuals, simulators etc., and set up a tech / training program so that when Aussies get their new ones they come to us for training. Safe air could do the maintenance etc. The USAF aircraft wold have stuff all hours on them as they only started going into service IIRC in 2007.

I sent an emailtonite to Minister of defence suggesting this buy. If others were to do the same then they might get the idea. This is his email address: [e-mail]

[Dave Homewood]

Is Wayne Mapp no longer the Minister of Defence?

If we only need 4-6 aircraft but they are cheap, we should purchase 10. Like the Andover deal.