pablo
Warrant Officer
Posts: 30
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Post by pablo on May 24, 2011 19:31:48 GMT 12
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Post by kiwiscanfly on May 28, 2011 20:14:57 GMT 12
interesting stuff there..... saw this same story somewhere else. It's still going to take some time before all of this comes into a visual design I feel, I believe this is just there initial specification with all the navies toys on the wish list......... wait for the bankers and the treasury to get their hands on it. Having said that the white paper did also look at adding more weapons and sensors to the OPV's and this could be done in co-operation with the new ship for the same reasons.
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pablo
Warrant Officer
Posts: 30
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Post by pablo on May 29, 2011 20:44:34 GMT 12
Yep the Polly’s are pretty keen on cutting the defence spend that's for sure.
My understanding is that this one will be built with the option to add weapons later but with none onboard when launched.
The navy is losing three ships and only getting two to replace them (Endeavour replacement and a literal warfare vessel), so let’s hope they are purpose built to military standards this time!
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Post by flyjoe180 on Jun 1, 2011 21:26:35 GMT 12
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Post by John L on Jun 29, 2011 20:14:13 GMT 12
It'll have 50 calibre machine guns - what? - Browning M2's probably from the Navy museum....er stores board.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 29, 2011 21:08:16 GMT 12
Since the rest of the fleet never gets very far before they turn back to port for engine repairs, do we even need a new re-supply ship?  |
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Post by Andy Wright on Jun 29, 2011 22:38:28 GMT 12
Multi-role ships do more work. Who would have thunk it?
Good to see the RNZN thinking down these lines. An island nation needs a strong and capable maritime force.
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Post by kiwiscanfly on Aug 20, 2011 19:57:17 GMT 12
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Post by ngatimozart on May 28, 2012 16:57:51 GMT 12
There is a rumour floating around that the RAN has asked to lease the Spanish Armanda Navantia built AOR Cantabria A15, with Spanish crew, to give it a going over to see what it's good and bad points are. If this is the case in that said ship does arrive in Australia for RAN assessment, IMHO it would make good sense to have a NZMinDef / RNZN assessment team present at the same time to do an assesment for the NZG / RNZN.
Before every one say it's to big for RNZN, the Cantabria (good name too - should paint it red and black ) is not first of class and is an upscaled Patino.
The Patino's key data is:
Crew 148
Aircrew Accommodation 19
Additional Accommodation 20
Length 170m
Beam 23m
Height 8m
Displacement 5,780t
Engines
The ship is fitted with two Navantia / Burmeister and Wein 16V40/45 diesel engines rated at 17.6MW sustained power. The engines drive a single shaft with a five-blade controllable pitch propeller supplied by Lips BV of the Netherlands.
Patino Class Auxiliary Oiler and Replenishment Ship - Naval Technology
Displacement: 17,050 tons full load
Dimensions: 175 x 23.7 x 8 meters (574 x 77.5 x 26 feet)
Propulsion: 2 diesels, 2 shafts, 21 knots
Crew: 162 + 19 transients
Aviation: aft helicopter deck with hangar for 2 helicopters
Cargo: 9,000 tons (6,800 DFM, 1,650 JP-5, parts, ordnance & food)
Radar: combined air & sea search
EW: intercept, 4 SRBOC
Armament: 1 20 mm Meroka CIWS, 2 20 mm
AOR-type ship designed in cooperation with Netherlands.
World Navies Today: Spain
Endeavours specs:
Standard Displacement: 7,300 tonnes empty
12,300 tonnes laden
Length Overall: 138 metres
Beam: 18.4 metres
Draught: 4.5m empty
7.6m laden
Speed: 14 knots
Range: 10,000 nautical miles
Complement: 50 Officers and ratings
(13 Officers, 10 Senior Ratings, 27 Junior Ratings)
Propulsion: One Mann Burmeister & Wain diesel (5,300 hp)
RNZN - Endeavour
Ok the Patino is larger than the Endeavour and the NZG is cost adverse, but considering that they want to replace the Endeavour with AOR / MRV type, then this would be worth looking at if the AOR Cantabria A15 makes the voyage to Australia. If it doesn't and the ADF / RAN decide to go to Spain to investigate it, then it would do no harm for a NZ MinDef / RNZN team to go as well. The AOR Cantabria A15 is an upscaled Patino so would be to large for RNZN needs, however a vessel of the Patino's size, or even a scaled down version, could meet the RNZN need. The crewing is very large (three times) than that of the Endeavour. With the Defence purchasing agreement between NZ and Aussie, and the political desire across both sides of the ditch for defence commonality, this is something that is worth investigating.
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Post by meo4 on May 28, 2012 23:17:46 GMT 12
Not bad for 180 million euros $300 million nz think RNZN will go with cheaper COTS design probably from same Korean ship yards under budget on time about third the price. Think ANZAC upgrade around $300 million remember Wanye Map on TV hinting something basically upgrade combat management system new ISR sensors , not sure about semi active ESSM like Ozzie ANZACs though $300 million prob only cover one ship , prob look at fire and forget active missiles like Royal Navy sea ceaptor or french mica VLS then theres no for need dedicated illuminators FCR radars etc. As for replacement ANZACS probably be Type 26 with recycled weapon systems removed off ANZAC 5 inch Gun , ciws , mk41 vls, torpedo tubes to save money on a new hull. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Combat_Ship |
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Post by ngatimozart on May 29, 2012 13:36:58 GMT 12
Not bad for 180 million euros $300 million nz think RNZN will go with cheaper COTS design probably from same Korean ship yards under budget on time about third the price. Think ANZAC upgrade around $300 million remember Wanye Map on TV hinting something basically upgrade combat management system new ISR sensors , not sure about semi active ESSM like Ozzie ANZACs though $300 million prob only cover one ship , prob look at fire and forget active missiles like Royal Navy sea ceaptor or french mica VLS then theres no for need dedicated illuminators FCR radars etc. As for replacement ANZACS probably be Type 26 with recycled weapon systems removed off ANZAC 5 inch Gun , ciws , mk41 vls, torpedo tubes to save money on a new hull. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Combat_ShipDisagree on the replacement ANZACs. The Type 26 will be a money sink and support etc., is half a world away. This particular concept was thrashed to death elsewhere and as it's basically a RN & RCN ship it was felt that it wouldn't meet the requirements of the RAN (& RNZN). One of the issues was technical support and obtaining spares from half a world away. HMAS Choules not withstanding, the RAN has had bad experiences with Pommy ships so wouldn't go near it unless it really had to. They are also very aware of the Upholder Class Submarine buy the Canadians did in late 1990s and the amount of money the RCN has had to pour into the four subs since then. The group that were debating this comprised serving and ex members RAN, RNZN, USN, RN, Defence analysts, other professionals knowledgable in this area and some of us amateurs when it comes to the technical stuff. The RNZN ANZAC replacement will be along the lines of the RAN replacement without any AEGIS componentry, unless the NZG of the day is convinced that such would be in the RNZN and nations best interest to have it fitted and operational. It probably will have ESSM capability by then. Simple reason the RNZN ANZAC replacement will be Son of ANZAC is compatability, commonality and support is just across the ditch. Also I would suspect that most of the weaponry on the ANZAC replacement will be of US origin so means tie in to USN Pac Flt logistics train for sustainment. If we got a pommy boat that probably wouldn't happen. Final reason is agreement between Aussie & NZ on Defence purchasing and so this'll be pollitical as well. My hope is that we get at least a bare minimum three ships. |
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Post by ngatimozart on May 29, 2012 13:47:37 GMT 12
It'll have 50 calibre machine guns - what? - Browning M2's probably from the Navy museum....er stores board. Nothing wrong with the M2 Browning .50 cal. They are not museum pieces and IIRC still manufactured. It is a simple and highly effective weapon that does what is needed. A nice weapon to use. It has a good reach and ideal for taking out pirates, engine rooms & bridges of commercial vessels and druggies. When we live fired them on Kiwi for training, we had to have a 10 nautical mile radius and 12,000 ft high clear area around us as safety zone so's we didn't shoot some civvy boatie or shoot down an Air NZ 737. The paperwork would be horrendous if something like that happened. |
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Post by Naki on May 29, 2012 14:01:12 GMT 12
RCN ship?...I thought they weren't interested in Type 26s due to Unions wanting it being built in Canada (although I dont see why they can't build Type 26s in Canada)?
The RCN Upholders were second hand and one of them had a fire which delayed their entry into service even further.
So our Leanders (and the RAN derivatives, the aircraft carrier HMAS Melbourne & the Oberons) were a pain to keep maintained? What about all the Spanish ships the Aussies are getting - almost the same distance as the UK away? I guess these are mainly filled with US equipment?
Are you advocating a Hobart class less Aegis as an ANZAC replacement? Bit big isnt it?
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Post by richard1098 on May 29, 2012 19:23:05 GMT 12
What about all the Spanish ships the Aussies are getting - almost the same distance as the UK away? I guess these are mainly filled with US equipment? Yep, lots of US systems including a fair proportion that are common to all the RAN's major surface combats making it feasible to support them in depth in Aus: Mk 41 VLS, Mk 45, LM2500, ESSM. Also the Aus content in terms of fabrication and fit-out is pretty high for the AWDs and even the LHDs, meaning the local shipyards will have the expertise to support them long term. I don't think the DoD even considered any truly "European" options for the AWD program e.g. Type 45, Sachsen or Horizon. |
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Post by ngatimozart on May 29, 2012 19:29:45 GMT 12
RCN ship?...I thought they weren't interested in Type 26s due to Unions wanting it being built in Canada (although I dont see why they can't build Type 26s in Canada)? The RCN Upholders were second hand and one of them had a fire which delayed their entry into service even further. So our Leanders (and the RAN derivatives, the aircraft carrier HMAS Melbourne & the Oberons) were a pain to keep maintained? What about all the Spanish ships the Aussies are getting - almost the same distance as the UK away? I guess these are mainly filled with US equipment? Are you advocating a Hobart class less Aegis as an ANZAC replacement? Bit big isnt it? The Hobart class are AWD destroyers not frigates. The global frigate program was put forward by the poms as a program for a new frigate for the RN, RAN & RCN. For reasons already mentioned and others the RAN didn't want to participate. The two Canberra class LHDs are being built by Navantia in Spain and based on the Spanish Armada carrier Juan Carlos I. www.navy.gov.au/Canberra_Class Wonder if our Minister will buy us one. It would make a good ship for EEZ patrolling and for Wings Over NZ members to go fishing off  The ANZAC replacement design stage hasn't even started and is unlikely to for a few more years. The upgrade program the RAN ANZAC frigates are going through at the moment will give them probably 15 - 20 years max more service. They are all getting the ESSM upgrade amongst other things. The ANZAC replacement will be a frigate not a destroyer and the way technology is progressing it is probable that Aegis will fit into a frigate hull, especially now that the radar is AESA so one would assume that since a similar radar fits into an F15E Silent Eagle, or a RAAF Wedgetail, it'll fit into a frigate. The radar beams are now steered electronically rather than mechanically, as it was on the original USN Aegis crusiers and destroyers. So since the radar array size has dramatically reduced in size, it means that it can be fitted into a smaller hull. The RNZN doesn't have a need for Aegis capability so why pay for something we don't need. The advantage of Aegis for Australia is that it gives it ABM capability considering that it is a target. However the NZG, more than the RNZN, will have to accept ESSM at some stage because that is what ,is now to all intents and purposes, the standard naval SAM missile of our two closest allies. The major point I am making about the US systems is that we can tie into the USN Pacific Fleet logistics chain. It is closer to Hawaii than Portsmouth, UK. The Son of ANZAC will be an Australasian frigate, designed and built in Australasia, probably with input from the USN around weapons systems and sensors. Thje USN and the RAN are the two navies we are and will be working with and it makes sense that we, as in NZ, have gear that is compatible with both those navies. In times past we bought from the poms but now times are different. The RAN did too and they got the Melbourne and Sydney for a steal because they were war surplus. But they had been caught out with pommy kit and costs of operating it, maintaining it and getting spares, so they went to the US as well as building their own. Yes they bought the Oberon subs off the poms, but they had issues with them too. The US hasn't built diesel subs since IIRC the 1950s, so the RAN couldn't get subs from them. Hasn't left them a lot of choice and they are having issues with the Collins class. The NZG bought pommy ships for political reasons, the last being the Southland & Wellington Leander class frigates, both second hand and both cost us a fortune to operate and maintain. We would have been better off buying two new FFGs from the US. But Muldoon was der Fuhrer. Finally with regard to the four Upholder class subs the RCN bought off the poms. Yes one had a fire but that is just one of the many problems that they are having with them. They have been lucky to have one at sea at any given time let alone two, and that is after something like 12 odd years. IMHO they'd be better off deep sixing them and starting again. |
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Post by ngatimozart on May 30, 2012 17:58:34 GMT 12
An addendum because I was thinking about it over night. The hull would have to have a reasonably large magazine for the missiles.
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Post by richard1098 on May 30, 2012 20:17:45 GMT 12
The ANZAC replacement will be a frigate not a destroyer and the way technology is progressing it is probable that Aegis will fit into a frigate hull, especially now that the radar is AESA so one would assume that since a similar radar fits into an F15E Silent Eagle, or a RAAF Wedgetail, it'll fit into a frigate. If the RNZN doesn't see a need for Aegis, there is always the new smaller phased array options like CEAFAR as used in the RAN's ANZAC upgrade www.cea.com.au/!Global/Directory.php?Location=ProductsServices:PhasedArrayTechnologies:CEAFAR or the AN/SPY-1F as used in Norway's Fridtjof Nansen class frigates. |
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Post by beagle on May 30, 2012 20:20:20 GMT 12
someone mentioned about the RAN leasing a spanish tanker/replenishment ship. Thought they only had HMAS Sirius a few years now. Are they looking at another one as well.
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Post by ngatimozart on May 30, 2012 21:01:50 GMT 12
They are possibly looking at a replacement for Sirius. It was just someone questioning a rumour on somewhere else I lurk. Can't remember if problems with Sirius but Tobruk was known as Tobroken and Manoora isn't thought of much more highly. The rumour was circulating around the Navantiayard and elsewhere in naval shipping circles in Spain. It maybe that someone is planning ahead for eventual replacement of Sirius and was putting feelers out. From elsewhere someone who inhabits the stratosphere commented that the crewing on the Patino is very high and that amongst other issues would not endear it to the NZG. He thinks that a Aegir 14-R or 15-R which hasn't yet been designed but is half way between the Aegir 10-R & 18-R would be ideal as long as it could be built by Daewoo. The Aegir 10-R is a straight tanker & the 18-R is an AOR, just what we want but too big, so an Aegir 14-R or 15-R would be about the right size. His comment was that somebody should be getting their crayons out about now. Also a bit of automation would have to be included to reduce the crewing. The design is a pommy design but our friend reckons if BMT used their crayons & designed a Aegir 14-R or 15-R we then could get Daewoo to build it which would work out cheaper for us. This is link to BMT site: www.bmtdsl.co.uk/?/309/865/1710I don't think the RNZN is installing CEAFAR in its ANZAC upgrade because of money, same with the ESSM. Which is short sightedness on NZGs part. The RAN are even installing the full upgrade on the two ANZACs that have been mothballed. We should get CEFAR & ESSM when we replace the ANZACs. |
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Post by beagle on May 30, 2012 21:13:22 GMT 12
just checked out the BMT site for the Aegir's. pretty sweet looking
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