ajmcg
Flight Sergeant
Posts: 20
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Post by ajmcg on Feb 1, 2023 14:30:15 GMT 12
Seems to me to be along time to try the new toy. The P-3’s are officially retired so P-8’s are it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the next completed P-8 from Boeing goes to the RNZAF to bolster numbers. Also of interest is the retirement of Air Ordance trade with the P-3. Are we never intending to purchase Harpoon ASM or torpedoes? Are they only robe for SAR, EEZ and environmental patrols? Traditionally NZDF has had 3 offensive weapons, Navy frigates, Army SAS and Air Force P-3 Orions.
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Post by tbf2504 on Feb 1, 2023 15:06:47 GMT 12
Does the crew of nine include a flight engineer or has this trade been reduced to just the current C130H and will disappear with the C130J??
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nz104
Pilot Officer
Posts: 54
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Post by nz104 on Feb 1, 2023 15:40:12 GMT 12
The P8 does not have a Flight engineer & the flight engineers role will disappear completely when the J's enter service as there is no need with the automated systems onboard the new aircraft.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 1, 2023 17:38:07 GMT 12
You need to listen to WONZ 268 and 269 Paul.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Feb 1, 2023 18:24:14 GMT 12
Traditionally NZDF has had 3 offensive weapons, Navy frigates, Army SAS and Air Force P-3 Orions. WHAT! The members of NZDF Ouput 2, the Army Multi Role Battalion Group which is an all arms organisation with numerous significant weapon systems that will deploy as Light Infantry or Light Armour may have something to say about that list.
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Post by lesterpk on Feb 2, 2023 0:16:01 GMT 12
6Sqn with it's Maverick and now Penguin missles has joined the chat.
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Post by tbf2504 on Feb 2, 2023 8:50:06 GMT 12
Touche Dave, will have a look at them. It would be interesting to list all the types the RNZAF has flown that included a Flight Engineer as regular crew. I would start with the Singapore Flying Boats, Catalinas, Sunderlands (WWII and onwards) C47's (On the long haul Courier flights to Japan) etc etc
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 2, 2023 9:53:51 GMT 12
It would be interesting to list all the types the RNZAF has flown that included a Flight Engineer as regular crew. I would start with the Singapore Flying Boats, Catalinas, Sunderlands (WWII and onwards) C47's (On the long haul Courier flights to Japan) etc etc DC-6, Hastings, Hercules. Orion, Boeing 727.
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Post by baronbeeza on Feb 2, 2023 11:39:46 GMT 12
While the F-27 often had engineering personnel listed in the crew manifest on some deployments they were ground trades. I can't speak for the Andover but they may well have been the same.
I never saw a Flight Engineer in my time on the Friendships and I am unaware of any that may have even done type training.
I was onboard during one Aussie trip and witnessed an LAC become an 'instant' Sergeant for the duration. While he did wear his new chevrons we never went so far as to pin a brevet on his uniform.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 2, 2023 11:54:57 GMT 12
While the F-27 often had engineering personnel listed in the crew manifest on some deployments they were ground trades. Thanks, I did wonder that when I wrote Friendship and I even put a question mark as I was typing, and then removed it thinking someone will correct it if it is wrong. The exact same thing is the case for the Singapores, they did not have Flight Engineer tradesmen among their crews, they had ground engineers who flew. They were also Air Gunners, and were not formally trained in either role. The RNZAF had no training system for Flight Engineers in place till the Catalinas and C-47's arrived.
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Post by camtech on Feb 2, 2023 19:24:29 GMT 12
Andovers were in the same boat as the Friendship - having filled that role on both types. Another that fits that profile would be the B170.
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Post by Mustang51 on Feb 3, 2023 9:00:10 GMT 12
Can someone advise me why the P8 - unless I have been extremely "old timers" - is not even featured as a future capability in the RNZAF official web site? Have I missed something or does it not qualify, even though one is there, as a capability until the RNZAF is fully equipped?
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Post by phil on Feb 3, 2023 22:10:04 GMT 12
Seems to me to be along time to try the new toy. The P-3’s are officially retired so P-8’s are it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the next completed P-8 from Boeing goes to the RNZAF to bolster numbers. Also of interest is the retirement of Air Ordance trade with the P-3. Are we never intending to purchase Harpoon ASM or torpedoes? Are they only robe for SAR, EEZ and environmental patrols? Traditionally NZDF has had 3 offensive weapons, Navy frigates, Army SAS and Air Force P-3 Orions. Lack of air ordnance trade has no implication for the weapons. We no longer have air engineers either, but the P8 still has engines. The mission crew will handle the Sonobuoys and other cabin stores. Once the maintainers have loaded the Torpedoes, there's nothing for an ord to do anyway, other than a final check before flight, and other aircrew will do that, it's just following a checklist. I'd be more concerned there's no armourers to load them.
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Post by tbf2504 on Feb 4, 2023 7:34:49 GMT 12
Our P-8's in addition to the weapons bay, have hard points on the wings for stand-off weapons such as Harpoons. As indicated above in my discussions with the crew of NZ4801 at Ohakea, everything stores/weapons wise is controlled by the computer systems onboard, as arranged by either the automation or the TACCO. The P-8A does not have the ability to drop small things such as radio packs from the door, (unlike the P-3)
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Post by oj on Feb 4, 2023 9:15:13 GMT 12
What about dropping a rescue dinghy to a boat in distress?
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Post by ErrolC on Feb 4, 2023 9:57:32 GMT 12
What about dropping a rescue dinghy to a boat in distress? There are packages dropped from the bomb bay.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 4, 2023 10:46:50 GMT 12
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Post by phil on Feb 5, 2023 21:39:26 GMT 12
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Post by Antonio on Feb 7, 2023 9:08:47 GMT 12
The air force's new flying machines From RNZ Detail: www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018876138/the-air-force-s-new-flying-machinesIncludes podcasts Photo: RNZ / Samuel Rillstone
Our old heroes of the Air Force, the P-3 Orions, have retired after 56 years of service - and the first of the flash new Poseidon P-8As has arrived. But is the accusation that we've chosen the gold-plated replacement a fair one? And is Green Party criticism that we should be moving away from operating weapons of war valid? "They are a weapon. They're an advanced weapon," says David Capie, the director of the Centre for Strategic Studies at Victoria University. "They're a maritime patrol aircraft that's designed for a whole range of tasks, and those tasks range from, at one end of the spectrum, search and rescue, and responding to humanitarian assistance and disasters in the Pacific, and fisheries patrol; but they're also a high-end platform for anti-submarine warfare ... essentially for being able to detect what's on the surface and what's below the surface. "So to pretend that these aircraft are only really about search and rescue, or humanitarian assistance, or environmental monitoring really misses the point. "These are aircraft that have the ability to work with partners, and work in a range of environments including more dangerous and non-permissible environments, and to be able to carry on and advance New Zealand's interests in regional and international security." Capie thinks we need to get out of the mode of thinking our Air Force is only used for emergencies. "Surely one of the lessons that's come home in spades over the last couple of years is that we're living in a much more challenging and dangerous world," he says. "We shouldn't be panicky or hysterical about the challenges that are out there, but I think we do need to recognise that the world is a more challenging place and New Zealand's national interests, and security interests, are being challenged - and we need to think about how we best want to respond. "One of the criticisms is that this is really a gold-plated aircraft that's really about anti-submarine warfare ... and it's really about buying into, or tying yourself into your big allies' concerns about security, and not about independent foreign policy. "But I really think an independent foreign policy in many ways is about giving the New Zealand government choices. And the P-8 can do that huge range of tasks from the softer end, from the search and rescue, from trans-national crime, fisheries and so on - but it can also provide New Zealand governments with options and choices in the event of a much more dangerous and challenging scenario in our region." The Detail also talks to the man in charge of the new planes, Wing Commander Mark Whiteside, who is the Commanding Officer of the Poseidon Transition Unit at the Ohakea air base. He runs us through the nitty-gritty of the upgrades, including that the Poseidons fly about 25 percent faster than the Orions with a cruise speed of 440 knots. And while they can't remain airborne for quite as long as the Orions, if we are on international exercises with other P-8 nations - including the US, UK and Australia - they can be re-fuelled mid-air. (We don't have a refuelling tanker.) Wing Commander Mark Whiteside explains why six down to four is actually an upgrade - listen to the podcast to find out why. You can find out how to listen and subscribe to The Detail here. You can also stay up-to-date by liking us on Facebook or following us on Twitter.
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Post by snafu on Feb 7, 2023 11:15:36 GMT 12
"Capie thinks we need to get out of the mode of thinking our Air Force is only used for emergencies."
I think that one line says a lot about where the NZDF and most notably where they should think the RNZAF role is first and foremost.
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