chis73
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 87
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Post by chis73 on Dec 11, 2019 15:30:35 GMT 12
Good to see her underway finally.
Let's hope there are not too many problems, and nothing major. Wouldn't be surprised to hear of some delays to her arrival in NZ. Being a first-of-class ship, it would be foolish to expect no defects - but I doubt we will learn anything through official Navy or Govt sources - unless it becomes expensive to fix and Treasury becomes involved. Fingers crossed that the project management has been much better than Project Protector anyway.
The RFA seems to have had some problems with their new Korean-built Tide class (one is currently being expensively refitted at present, but perhaps that may be a make-work scheme to keep the UK dockyards busy).
Can't help but think we've still bought the wrong ship: we've effectively built another AO (roughly similar to a US Kaiser class oiler), not an AOR. For almost the same money we could have had a 3rd Cantabria class in the region (along with all the logistical and operational benefits that would have brought). Oh well, we never learn.
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Post by nighthawknz on Dec 11, 2019 16:57:43 GMT 12
Good to see her underway finally. Let's hope there are not too many problems, and nothing major. Wouldn't be surprised to hear of some delays to her arrival in NZ. Being a first-of-class ship, it would be foolish to expect no defects - but I doubt we will learn anything through official Navy or Govt sources - unless it becomes expensive to fix and Treasury becomes involved. Fingers crossed that the project management has been much better than Project Protector anyway. The RFA seems to have had some problems with their new Korean-built Tide class (one is currently being expensively refitted at present, but perhaps that may be a make-work scheme to keep the UK dockyards busy). Can't help but think we've still bought the wrong ship: we've effectively built another AO (roughly similar to a US Kaiser class oiler), not an AOR. For almost the same money we could have had a 3rd Cantabria class in the region (along with all the logistical and operational benefits that would have brought). Oh well, we never learn. I remember reading somewhere that they spent a lot of time and money just on testing and design phase then redesigning and alternating to get things right and got a few out side experts in as well... So on that side I believe they have done everything possible, I am pretty confident in the South Korean workmanship, as they take pride in their work... so confident it shouldn't be to much. But only time will tell. But expect a few minor things to be tweaked here and there... Another thing Project Protector was on a budget of $500m for all 7 vessels... HMNZS Aotearoa cost just under that for one vessel. You have to remember that she is also designed to go south to McMurdo during the summer and also has all these new winterization features. The US Kaiser class oiler or Cantabria class would need to have major redesigns to add the ice belt and these winterization features and sometimes it works out cheaper to just design a new build. She is a double hull tanker (required by international agreement laws and for most ports now) that has an ice belt as well and a bulbous wave piercing bow with new winterization features for deicing... what could possibly go wrong... |
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dgd911
Flying Officer
Posts: 56
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Post by dgd911 on Dec 11, 2019 23:22:37 GMT 12
Interesting video, sitting low(ish) in water, have tanks been filled with ballast? Also note none of the self defence armament fitted yet. I thought the phalanx and mini typhoons would be installed before delivery voyage
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dgd911
Flying Officer
Posts: 56
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Post by dgd911 on Dec 11, 2019 23:32:57 GMT 12
These trials test her seaworthiness alongside her integrated propulsion and platform management systems. After three years of design and build effort, further trials will provide valuable insights into Aotearoa ahead of her upcoming journey home to New Zealand shores and into our Naval fleet. Hopefully that upcoming voyage to New Zealand will have Frigate TK as escort when Aotearoa transits through the South China Sea. |
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Post by pepe on Dec 12, 2019 9:52:50 GMT 12
Interesting video, sitting low(ish) in water, have tanks been filled with ballast? Also note none of the self defence armament fitted yet. I thought the phalanx and mini typhoons would be installed before delivery voyage The light armament probably will be fitted when she returns to NZ. She has been designed and wired for the Phalanx system, but the Navy only currently possesses two mounts. I've seen no official announcements in regards to the purchase of an additional unit. Until then she may have to remain in the "fitted for" category or borrow one off a frigate if required. |
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Post by nighthawknz on Dec 12, 2019 11:24:41 GMT 12
She will most likely have a second defence military fit out on return to New Zealand.
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Post by TS on Dec 12, 2019 20:33:11 GMT 12
By second defences do you mean, pea shooters, sling shots and blow pipes...🤣😜
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Post by kiwirob on Dec 12, 2019 20:45:27 GMT 12
Good to see her underway finally. Let's hope there are not too many problems, and nothing major. Wouldn't be surprised to hear of some delays to her arrival in NZ. Being a first-of-class ship, it would be foolish to expect no defects - but I doubt we will learn anything through official Navy or Govt sources - unless it becomes expensive to fix and Treasury becomes involved. Fingers crossed that the project management has been much better than Project Protector anyway. The RFA seems to have had some problems with their new Korean-built Tide class (one is currently being expensively refitted at present, but perhaps that may be a make-work scheme to keep the UK dockyards busy). Can't help but think we've still bought the wrong ship: we've effectively built another AO (roughly similar to a US Kaiser class oiler), not an AOR. For almost the same money we could have had a 3rd Cantabria class in the region (along with all the logistical and operational benefits that would have brought). Oh well, we never learn. Absolutely not a make work scheme for the yard, all 4 vessels will go through the same process, these were badly fitted out ships, the electrical systems are a mess. |
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Post by kiwirob on Dec 12, 2019 20:49:49 GMT 12
Good to see her underway finally. Let's hope there are not too many problems, and nothing major. Wouldn't be surprised to hear of some delays to her arrival in NZ. Being a first-of-class ship, it would be foolish to expect no defects - but I doubt we will learn anything through official Navy or Govt sources - unless it becomes expensive to fix and Treasury becomes involved. Fingers crossed that the project management has been much better than Project Protector anyway. The RFA seems to have had some problems with their new Korean-built Tide class (one is currently being expensively refitted at present, but perhaps that may be a make-work scheme to keep the UK dockyards busy). Can't help but think we've still bought the wrong ship: we've effectively built another AO (roughly similar to a US Kaiser class oiler), not an AOR. For almost the same money we could have had a 3rd Cantabria class in the region (along with all the logistical and operational benefits that would have brought). Oh well, we never learn. I remember reading somewhere that they spent a lot of time and money just on testing and design phase then redesigning and alternating to get things right and got a few out side experts in as well... So on that side I believe they have done everything possible, I am pretty confident in the South Korean workmanship, as they take pride in their work... so confident it shouldn't be to much. But only time will tell. But expect a few minor things to be tweaked here and there... Another thing Project Protector was on a budget of $500m for all 7 vessels... HMNZS Aotearoa cost just under that for one vessel. You have to remember that she is also designed to go south to McMurdo during the summer and also has all these new winterization features. The US Kaiser class oiler or Cantabria class would need to have major redesigns to add the ice belt and these winterization features and sometimes it works out cheaper to just design a new build. She is a double hull tanker (required by international agreement laws and for most ports now) that has an ice belt as well and a bulbous wave piercing bow with new winterization features for deicing... what could possibly go wrong... It will be really interesting to find out what sort of lighting the Koreans used. From experience in bidding on a number of Korean built ice class LNG tankers the local manufacturers lie about their products capabilities, the external fittings will likely need replacing, the Daeyang solutions don't work well below -35C |
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Post by nighthawknz on Dec 12, 2019 20:52:45 GMT 12
By second defences do you mean, pea shooters, sling shots and blow pipes...🤣😜 lol   she has had most of her fit out done already... a second fit out to fit defence equipment... from weapons too certain communications and command systems... (although I am not sure where and when the military comms and command systems will be fitted. But I guess the weapons, Phalanx CIWS and typhoons etc will most likely get fitted during the second fit out in Auckland) Like HMNZS Manawanui, she got some stuff fitted before her trip and all her military comms and command systems etc... fitted when she got to NZ... But she still 6 odd months away yet and still has time to get stuff done... |
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Post by nighthawknz on Dec 13, 2019 16:51:30 GMT 12
See I looked closer at the concept art... The Typhoons are on the on the port and starboard quarter end of the flight deck in a well... and the amidship you have 2 .50 cal (one port, one starboard) and forward under the phalanx there is another 50 cal... I always thought that the typhoons were going to be amidship on the superstructure... now I am not so sure...  lol  50 cal under the Phalanx on the bow  Typhoons on the port and starboard quarter of the flightdeck  50 Cal amidship on the superstructure which I always thought were the Mini typhoons ... |
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dgd911
Flying Officer
Posts: 56
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Post by dgd911 on Dec 14, 2019 12:47:53 GMT 12
Problem is the concept art for A12 differs significantly from the actual A11 construction. In previously posted images of A11 there is no sign of those flight deck corner depressions where minibus typhoons would be located. The amidships bodywork is way different too with different porthole/window layout and an extra build and platform to front of exhaust structure at the kiwi badge level. That platform looks ideally placed for mini typhoon. There also appears to be A11 small platforms on hangar real wall behind stacks, again great locations for mini typhoons or 50cals.
As for that 50cal just at the Phalanx, it would be a courageous gunner to operate that gun when the Phalanx was active and could start firing at any time.
I suppose we just have to wait and see..
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Post by gibbo on Dec 14, 2019 13:53:12 GMT 12
Problem is the concept art for A12 differs significantly from the actual A11 construction. In previously posted images of A11 there is no sign of those flight deck corner depressions where minibus typhoons would be located. The amidships bodywork is way different too with different porthole/window layout and an extra build and platform to front of exhaust structure at the kiwi badge level. That platform looks ideally placed for mini typhoon. There also appears to be A11 small platforms on hangar real wall behind stacks, again great locations for mini typhoons or 50cals. As for that 50cal just at the Phalanx, it would be a courageous gunner to operate that gun when the Phalanx was active and could start firing at any time. I suppose we just have to wait and see.. Yes the fact she was illustrated as A12 but is actually A11 tells you it's not wise to assume anything based on artist impressions... AFAIK there's been no official declaration of what weapons she'll be equipped for so we won't know for sure until either (1) a press release clarifies it or (2) she fully enters service. I'm hoping RNZN will receive a 3rd Phalanx 1B set but but holding my breath. Whether it's manually operated .5 cal HMG or same in mini-typhoons, or even better 25mm Typhoons, the key issue is whether there are enough provided at the right spots on board to allow 360 degree surface coverage. So far, other than the ANZACs, RNZN vessels are poorly setup for this which I presume means they can't really get involved in UN scale patrol ops. |
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Post by nighthawknz on Dec 14, 2019 14:08:42 GMT 12
Problem is the concept art for A12 differs significantly from the actual A11 construction. In previously posted images of A11 there is no sign of those flight deck corner depressions where minibus typhoons would be located. The amidships bodywork is way different too with different porthole/window layout and an extra build and platform to front of exhaust structure at the kiwi badge level. That platform looks ideally placed for mini typhoon. There also appears to be A11 small platforms on hangar real wall behind stacks, again great locations for mini typhoons or 50cals. As for that 50cal just at the Phalanx, it would be a courageous gunner to operate that gun when the Phalanx was active and could start firing at any time. I suppose we just have to wait and see.. I haven't really seen any clear photos of the finished flight deck they have all bee covered with gear and equipment etc. And I will say, now that looking back on the concept art... if you look closely they are there... its only now that I noticed it that I see on all the concept art. Even on early stuff... we   You can just make the typhoons out on the flight deck Even on the early concept art I zoomed in on the flightdeck... and there they are... It is just we never noticed them before... and of course because they are so small it is very hard to see... and of course they could be anything... and the resolustion isn't the best... but...  So small and insignificant it is hard to see it unless you are looking for it... Zoomed in image  The platform you speak of on the exhaust stack... is (I am 99.9%) sure a communications ariel platforms and you can clearly see it here with the aerial. Which I believe those aerials were going to be originally forward of the exhaust structure and for what ever reason were moved to the new location.   But I agree with the platforms above the hangar on the rear of the exhaust structure... again I have no clear photo of that area and what is going on, but would also be a goo spot as you suggest The phalanx is a lot higher up, and wouldn't pose any danger to the gun crew except noise even in surface mode. But I would suspect it would be more than likely that it is only for certain scenario's that it would be manned etc ie; manned in port during scenario's where the threat level is high etc. |
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Post by nighthawknz on Dec 14, 2019 14:17:25 GMT 12
Problem is the concept art for A12 differs significantly from the actual A11 construction. In previously posted images of A11 there is no sign of those flight deck corner depressions where minibus typhoons would be located. The amidships bodywork is way different too with different porthole/window layout and an extra build and platform to front of exhaust structure at the kiwi badge level. That platform looks ideally placed for mini typhoon. There also appears to be A11 small platforms on hangar real wall behind stacks, again great locations for mini typhoons or 50cals. As for that 50cal just at the Phalanx, it would be a courageous gunner to operate that gun when the Phalanx was active and could start firing at any time. I suppose we just have to wait and see.. Yes the fact she was illustrated as A12 but is actually A11 tells you it's not wise to assume anything based on artist impressions... AFAIK there's been no official declaration of what weapons she'll be equipped for so we won't know for sure until either (1) a press release clarifies it or (2) she fully enters service. I'm hoping RNZN will receive a 3rd Phalanx 1B set but but holding my breath. Whether it's manually operated .5 cal HMG or same in mini-typhoons, or even better 25mm Typhoons, the key issue is whether there are enough provided at the right spots on board to allow 360 degree surface coverage. So far, other than the ANZACs, RNZN vessels are poorly setup for this which I presume means they can't really get involved in UN scale patrol ops. Thing is alot of minor changes can be made after concept art gets released but the bulk of it remains the same. I would say she will be commissioned without her second weapons fit out and may take a bit after that to see anything being fitted... thats my guess. As for coverage.. with the phalanx up front and say the typhoons on the rear quarters, plus say .5 cal HMG amidship... that is a decent arc coverage... but limited in capability. if the tphoons were amidship the stern is not covered in any arc of cover fire |
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Post by gibbo on Dec 14, 2019 20:33:15 GMT 12
Problem is the concept art for A12 differs significantly from the actual A11 construction. In previously posted images of A11 there is no sign of those flight deck corner depressions where minibus typhoons would be located. The amidships bodywork is way different too with different porthole/window layout and an extra build and platform to front of exhaust structure at the kiwi badge level. That platform looks ideally placed for mini typhoon. There also appears to be A11 small platforms on hangar real wall behind stacks, again great locations for mini typhoons or 50cals. As for that 50cal just at the Phalanx, it would be a courageous gunner to operate that gun when the Phalanx was active and could start firing at any time. I suppose we just have to wait and see.. Yeah operating that forward 50cal would be nasty once the phalanx opened up... noise would be the least of the problems, the shock wave / blast would be phenomenal! |
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dgd911
Flying Officer
Posts: 56
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Post by dgd911 on Dec 14, 2019 22:39:29 GMT 12
All the Govt press releases and publications about Aotearoa state the self defence armament is a major feature. so I had thought the weapons cost was included in purchase price, therefore weapons delivery to HHI for installation (just like farsounder was). It will be disappointing if A11 ends up ‘fitted for but not with’ weapons such as the Phalanx no doubt we shall see what’s fitted when the delivery voyage is underway. Since Aotearoa is a high value target for potential aggressors, it would be nice to see some decent self defence weaponry. Such as two of those, stored at Devonport, MSI DS25 systems, one mounted each side amidships. better still with Martlet missile launchers included 😀 Or just do proper self defence and get a VLS fitted for Sea Ceptor Will deployed Aotearoa always carry an NH-90? Marinised version? And will there be any helo weaponry included? |
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Post by nighthawknz on Dec 14, 2019 22:47:01 GMT 12
@ 2:20 While they aren't standing below it or in front ... but behind however they don't seem to be to concerned with any shock wave... and if the Phalanx was going to open up onto an incoming threat you would try to bring and bare all weapons so Aotearoa would try to do bring all weapons to face the threat... like a pirate skiff fast boat etc and therefore if there was a gun crew there they wouldn't be standing under it... but beside it... If a missile maybe steer into the missile make a smaller target and bring Phalanx on line... but depends on the threat and situation and what other ships are escorting and would be the Captain or OoW call, heck she may have a junior PWO on board decision... However as I said, I believe that it would only be in certain situations it would be manned. ie when in port and threat is high (like we did in the first Fiji coupe in 87 HMNZS Wellington had the 50 cals manned... and on watch while in port) or the other option is that it is a mini typhoon? or that there is nothing going to be there... lol (which is most likely lol)
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Post by pepe on Dec 15, 2019 18:30:57 GMT 12
All the Govt press releases and publications about Aotearoa state the self defence armament is a major feature. so I had thought the weapons cost was included in purchase price, therefore weapons delivery to HHI for installation (just like farsounder was). It will be disappointing if A11 ends up ‘fitted for but not with’ weapons such as the Phalanx no doubt we shall see what’s fitted when the delivery voyage is underway. Since Aotearoa is a high value target for potential aggressors, it would be nice to see some decent self defence weaponry. Such as two of those, stored at Devonport, MSI DS25 systems, one mounted each side amidships. better still with Martlet missile launchers included 😀 Or just do proper self defence and get a VLS fitted for Sea Ceptor Will deployed Aotearoa always carry an NH-90? Marinised version? And will there be any helo weaponry included? Initially, It would not surprise me if armament is limited to manually operated HMG's. When the Typhoons were added to the frigates this was announced well in advance by both the Navy and supplier. I have seen no such correspondence so far for this project. Given that the Phalanx system is now relatively old technology and of limited effectiveness against more modern threats, again it would not surprise me if an additional unit is not purchased. If circumstances warranted it, sometime in the future, a more modern system may be considered. Given our small number of airframes, I would imagine that a helicopter would only be deployed when it's mission required one. Certainly not a marinised NH-90 as we don't have one. |
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Post by futurenz on Dec 26, 2019 12:43:28 GMT 12
Wish they would replace a couple of Typhoon positions with Millenium Guns... I suspect finding space for Sea Ceptors would involve a bit of re-engineering and significantly more investment in radar etc than is warranted for an oiler/replenishment ship. It may need to tag along with a front-line fleet at times but still just a fleet auxiliary.
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lol