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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 20, 2020 15:09:13 GMT 12
Paul, with roundels and the yellow stripes?
Are there any ex-NAC people here that can confirm please?
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Post by mit on Feb 20, 2020 15:18:35 GMT 12
I'd be interested in seeing the report! Amazing there appears to be no markings of any kind |
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Post by mit on Feb 20, 2020 15:21:02 GMT 12
These photos were taken on the 26th of October 1944 when the aircraft was new and had suffered a wire strike just five days into its RNZAF service. These come from the accident report. Bevan and I agree that this is clearly bare metal, not painted, doped or lacquered. Bevan has inspected the paint on the aircraft as it is now too and he is certain that there is nothing under the white coat of paint, not even a primer, and certainly no evidence of silver dope or paint, only the painted roundels and yellow bands.    Dave surely there should be the NAC scheme under the white? |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 20, 2020 15:45:43 GMT 12
Amazing there appears to be no markings of any kind Agreed. That flight was five days after it arrived at the OTU from Hobsonville so it has obviously not yet been allocated codes. Not sue if there was a roundel on it. |
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Post by Brenton on Feb 20, 2020 18:54:27 GMT 12
My dad Allan flew this plane 5 times in July 1944 as part of OTU 2. On the 28th he flew the plane twice. Both times he was tasked with drogue targeting using both the machine gun and gun camera. Somewhat disappointing result thou with 2.8% the first time around and then in the next sortie 2.7%. It was a busy day as he also flew 3 Kittyhawks and had another go at drogue shooting in Harvard NZ1025.
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Post by 185skywagon on Feb 21, 2020 7:40:11 GMT 12
Interesting. Aft fuse should have been wooden, if the photos were indeed taken during the war. Part of the * mod/rebuild in the early 50s was to replace the wooden aft fuselages of the IIa's.
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Post by mit on Feb 21, 2020 10:00:40 GMT 12
Interesting. Aft fuse should have been wooden, if the photos were indeed taken during the war. Part of the * mod/rebuild in the early 50s was to replace the wooden aft fuselages of the IIa's. Not all of them came with wooden parts |
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Post by snaphead on Feb 21, 2020 10:18:16 GMT 12
I won't swear to it, but in my time as a tutor airnz Training School, we had 2 Harvards. One was sold when our workshop became the small gas turbine overhaul shop (GTC etc). At the same tme a Piper Apache we had was sold by our "great leader". I believe NZ 1044 was our other training aid, used primarily for installation of flight controls and tensioning control cables. cables. There was even talk of using it for ground running, but we used a captive Lycombing instead. |
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Post by mit on Feb 21, 2020 11:34:34 GMT 12
I won't swear to it, but in my time as a tutor airnz Training School, we had 2 Harvards. One was sold when our workshop became the small gas turbine overhaul shop (GTC etc). At the same tme a Piper Apache we had was sold by our "great leader". I believe NZ 1044 was our other training aid, used primarily for installation of flight controls and tensioning control cables. cables. There was even talk of using it for ground running, but we used a captive Lycombing instead. The other was NZ1041, originally NZ1044 was brought by NAC and NZ1041 to Air NZ. NZ1041 is at Omaka Quoted from the scale website www.thescale.info/news/publish/RNZAF-Harvard-NZ1041.shtml"Purchase by the National Airways Corporation (NAC) On October 8th, 1971, two Harvards were passed for disposal via the Government Stores Board; of these, NZ1041 went to Air New Zealand's Training School at Auckland International Airport. I have attaxched a colour photo of NZ1041's fuselage, still with "41", Roundel and Yellow Tj-Band, in one of NAC's Hangars at Harewood, prior to its transfer to Auckland in 1972. Included are three pictures taken at Mangere, showing NZ1041 in Air New Zealand colours."  NZ1041 at Mangere, Auckland, in Air New Zealand colours. (Robert Montgomery collection) |
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Post by baz62 on Feb 21, 2020 15:56:53 GMT 12
I won't swear to it, but in my time as a tutor airnz Training School, we had 2 Harvards. Yep Mit is on the money. While working on NZ1040 we would occasionally wander over to 1041 (she was parked wings off outside in a quadrangle at the school so as to keep her from the casual gaze.) as it was useful to check out where certain things were installed and colours of things too as she was still pretty much still RNZAF inside. |
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Post by 185skywagon on Feb 21, 2020 15:59:33 GMT 12
Not all of them came with wooden parts My understanding (and correct me where I'm wrong) is that the mk IIa was built with wooden rear fuselage, tail etc. This would account for roughly a quarter of all Harvards delivered to the RNZAF. It is known that towards the end of the IIa line, they reverted back to Aluminium as the materials shortage wasn't as bad as anticipated. There were a handful of IIa's produced with the full aluminium fuselage but specifically which ones are not really known. I'm not totally sure of any that ended up in NZ. Do you know of any in particular ? I suspect they will be higher in the serial numbers. NZ1044 could well be an example. Of course it goes without saying that eventually they ended up fully metal, if they survived the war as part of the * upgrade (along with the electrical system etc etc) |
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Post by baz62 on Feb 21, 2020 16:34:01 GMT 12
Not all of them came with wooden parts My understanding (and correct me where I'm wrong) is that the mk IIa was built with wooden rear fuselage, tail etc. NZ1044 could well be an example. Of course it goes without saying that eventually they ended up fully metal, if they survived the war as part of the * upgrade (along with the electrical system etc etc) When the Harvards went through the major upgrade post war it wasn't always a given that the same centre section would end up with the original rear fuselage. For example we noticed although 1040 was a IIA the rear fuselage was a III. Can't recall how our engineer knew this now as it was a few years ago. Even the horizontal stabilisers were a mix as when I paint stripped a layer off one I found NZ1056 stencilled on it (and she was now in Australia!) |
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Post by davidd on Feb 21, 2020 18:23:04 GMT 12
Harking back to how the RNZAF's WW2 Harvard fleet arrived in NZ from the factory, colour scheme wise, I would like to provide my understanding of how it all unfolded. Many members may already be aware of this, and there is no real hard evidence to support this work in its entirety (apart from the factory colour schemes to be found in American official publications, and supporting period photographs). Fortunately it could not be much simpler.
NZ901 - 1005 (Mk. II's), arrived in overall GLOSSY YELLOW, with roundels and fin flashes already in place, along with NZ serial numbers painted on the RUDDER in presumably black paint, and in a very small size, I think the serial numbers were also painted on undersides of wings in approved RAF style. These went to the three existing FTS's in NZ (in the order Wigram, Woodbourne, and later, Ohakea), to re-equip both the Intermediate Training Squadrons, then the Advanced Training Squadrons. One (NZ903) was sent to the Central Flying School at Tauranga, then later to the Technical Training School at Rongotai. Many of the later aircraft (particularly those from 3 SFTS) were transferred to fighter squadrons and No. 2 OTU at Ohakea.
NZ1006 to 1099 (Mk.IIA's, Mk. III's), arrived in bare metal, with RAF roundels, fin-flashes and serial numbers applied in normal RAF style, including underwing serial numbers. Very wide yellow bands (90 inches wide as measured on the trailing edge, upper and lower surfaces, basically from junction of centre-section to ailerons on each side). These were delivered to NZ between Sept 1942 and October 1944. Delivered to a wide range of units; Fighter OTUs, Fighter Gunnery School, Fighter squadrons, Army C-op sqdns, Dive and Torpedo Bomber squadrons, 42 Sqdn, communication flights, drogue (target towing) units, and a few as Station "hacks". NZ1068, then 1071 onwards were mostly delivered to 2 SFTS at Woodbourne, then were transferred in groups to 1 SFTS (Wigram) between August and October 1944, as Woodbourne was gradually converted from a "Single-Engine" SFTS to the new home for the CFS from Tauranga. Aircraft delivered to "Operational" units (Fighter sqdns, OTUs, etc) were usually given a coat of camouflage (usually earth and dark green, with various shades of "duck-egg" blue on undersurfaces); however the later aircraft (say from the NZ1040s onwards) tended to remain in their original bare metal finish, but with normal roundels, and unit code letter/numbers in normal positions.
NZ1100 to 1102. These Canadian built Harvard IIBs were orphans in the RNZAF, and were delivered (so far as we know) in overall "Training Yellow" (semi-matt finish). Because of the differences between these three and all the rest, little use was made of them. All three arrived with some of the last of the Mk. IIIs, in October 1944.
I have not attempted to cover all aircraft and units, nor all colour scheme changes - they were just too numerous! However one of the biggest changes was the general introduction of camouflage schemes for all aircraft, including training aircraft, from about March/April 1942, although those aircraft at the SFTS's later had their schemes modified by the introduction of yellow bands on upper wing surfaces to form a background for the roundels, and also large yellow areas were painted on both sides of fuselage, on which were painted the "last two" (occasionally "last three") numbers of serial number to try and reduce the danger of aerial collisions. Finally from late 1943 onwards, it was ordered that all training Harvards (SFTS, CFS) were to be changed over to an overall yellow colour scheme for reasons of flying safety, although this plan took a long time to accomplish, and it took some promptings from Air HQ to hurry up the programme, in about mid-1944 from memory. However by this time, some of the later Mk.IIIs were delivered directly to training schools from Hobsonville assembly in the bare metal finish, but with large yellow "blocks" on sides of fuselage below cockpits (these of course were removable panels) on which were painted their "last three". I like to think that the staff at Hobsonville hoped that Wigram would finish the job themselves without complaint!
Incidentally some of those Mk.IIA Harvards with the wooden rear fuselage (and fixed tail surfaces, as well as additional internal wooden items such as seats and perhaps other parts - cockpit flooring?) included NZ1046 and 1047, also 1070. The latter was a bit of an orphan, having suffered some damage to its rear fuselage during shipping to NZ. It is unknown if this damaged unit was repaired, or replaced by another wood one, or a metal one, but the aircraft remained at Hobsonville as their "hack" aircraft, and apparently never served on pilot training duties during WW2.
As usual, all comments welcome. Note, I have not got into the specifics of exact colours in this brief survey; my object here is to give a brief, but overall picture of the policies in force which governed the changing appearance of these aircraft through to end of WW2 - however there were plenty of changes AFTER the war, but these did not really start until about 1949/50 when the RNZAF started following the RAF again, introducing the famous yellow "training bands" around rear fuselage and about mid way along the mainplanes.
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Post by Mustang51 on Feb 22, 2020 10:16:44 GMT 12
Guessing the actual camo colours were a local mix to as-best-as approximate the RAF colours? Spent a lot of time trying to match the US equivalents (Du Pont) to the RAF colours for the Temora Hudson. Guessing the early P-40s that were taken over by the USAAF from RAF orders and that flew in the Pacific were the same colours (or micro close to) the same as the Hudsons
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Post by baz62 on Feb 22, 2020 11:06:17 GMT 12
We had a nice clear photo of NZ1040 in the bare metal and RAF roundels and fin flash. Taken not long after put into service.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 27, 2020 7:07:00 GMT 12
It is interesting to read all the discussion. I think this may become my favourite Harvard pretty soon.
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Post by kiwi285 on Feb 27, 2020 11:28:31 GMT 12
Is everyone aware that Dulux in Wellington has an archive with a fair portion of the WW II aircraft paint colours listed. They still have the original specifications for the paints. Several years ago I was trying to find a close paint shade to 'Sky' for a large model I was trying to complete. One of the older gentlemen in Bunnings said he was sure he could help and immediately phoned the archive section at Dulux and they gave him the paint mix. He mixed a sample pot up for me and it matched the colour chip chart I had from WW II very well. Amazing what you can come across at times.  Colour chart (1) by Mike Feisst, on Flickr  Colour chart (2) by Mike Feisst, on Flickr |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 27, 2020 13:15:01 GMT 12
That's interesting to know Mike. However I am sure the paint on Bevan's Harvard would be BARM colours mixed in New Zealand and not Dulux, sadly. But luckily Barf has all the details to recreate the scheme all the same.
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Post by davidd on Feb 27, 2020 15:39:37 GMT 12
Dave, that is BALM, not BARM. BALM = British Australian Lead Manufacturers Pty Ltd (taken from my copy of their Handbook, introduction dated December 1942). This lists all the approved "schemes" for their product, although these are NOT colours schemes as modellers understand this term, they are formal methods of using all their products in the real world, in the correct manner with temperatures, humidity, etc, and compatible materials, drying times, etc. It also lists all current paints and other associated products as supplied to the RAAF, with RAAF names, and BALM catalogue numbers (BALM reference numbers) and colours. At this time, BALM was represented in Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Wellington, Auckland, Christchurch and Dunedin! Their "Works" was located at Cabarita Rd, Concord, NSW.
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 27, 2020 16:29:01 GMT 12
Oh yeah, haha. I thought it sounded wrong when I wrote BARM.
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