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Post by tfly on May 14, 2023 8:26:09 GMT 12
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Post by 11SQNLDR on May 14, 2023 11:47:29 GMT 12
Only one credible contender in my view   |
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Post by phil on May 15, 2023 21:12:38 GMT 12
Only one credible contender in my view Agree, lets hope the trend of buying American continues. Otherwise my money would be on the Wildcat. |
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Post by jimtheeagle on May 16, 2023 0:09:42 GMT 12
That would be the biggest, heaviest, slowest and second-shortest legged of all the contenders that I can identify. I'm sure you can squeeze one onto an ANZAC frigate, but will it fit on any of the smaller RNZN ships? Does anyone have flight deck dimensions for those?
JT
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madmark
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 78
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Post by madmark on May 16, 2023 6:19:49 GMT 12
Its going to be Wildcat.
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Post by machina on May 16, 2023 12:14:19 GMT 12
That would be the biggest, heaviest, slowest and second-shortest legged of all the contenders that I can identify. I'm sure you can squeeze one onto an ANZAC frigate, but will it fit on any of the smaller RNZN ships? Does anyone have flight deck dimensions for those? JT The frigates and patrol vessels are coming up for replacement at a similar time (-ish) as the choppers from memory. One hopes that purchases made look forward to future requirements/capability rather than being restricted to outdated and outgoing kit. |
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Post by 11SQNLDR on May 16, 2023 12:49:45 GMT 12
With 38 in service across three Navies it's hardly been a runaway success... and does it tick the 'interoperability with the closest allies' box? Time will tell, regardless it will be nice for the poor old RNZN to get some brand new kit for a change! |
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Post by phil on May 16, 2023 16:05:13 GMT 12
With 38 in service across three Navies it's hardly been a runaway success... and does it tick the 'interoperability with the closest allies' box? Time will tell, regardless it will be nice for the poor old RNZN to get some brand new kit for a change! Makes it an almost certain bet then... |
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Post by jimtheeagle on May 16, 2023 20:44:16 GMT 12
I've heard that the Seasprites might not make it to their out of service date and that there could be a possibly interim solution needed sooner rather than later. This would require something able to operate from the existing OPVs, not some notional future replacement. There are not a lot of choices for suitable maritime helicopters, but these are the contenders as I see them, ranked from smallest to largest:
Airbus AS565mbe Panther
Leonardo AW159 Wildcat
Airbus H160M Guepard
Lockheed MH-60S Seahawk
The H160M is pretty new and very close in weights and dimensions to the Seasprite.
JT
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Post by machina on May 16, 2023 21:15:36 GMT 12
Is the Venom suitable for maritime ops?
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 16, 2023 21:29:38 GMT 12
Sea Venom? |
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Post by nighthawknz on May 17, 2023 6:04:36 GMT 12
The main issue is really only the OPV's? Do we get a platform that can still operate from them? Which rules out the Seahawk and the heavier larger helo's and then I would probably op for the Wildcat (which we would most likey be able to afford more of and would not trust Airbus.) I personally would be staying away from any of the EU platforms like Airbus as their supply chains are abysmal and the hidden costs the EU throw in catch you out.
Or do we use the A109 LUH until the replacement of the OPV's around 2035 and go for something like the Seahawk but get fewer of them due to budget, but build the replacements to handle a larger helo? (would be my option)
We may or may not have the first LPD coming online at the same time as the replacement of the SeaSprites and I would be surprised if they are not capable of operating and carrying multiple larger and heavier helo's up to the NH90's etc and then a deck that can operate and handle the Chinook size... which comes down to numbers of air frames required to fulfill the roles required
Frigate replacement
HMNZS Canterbury
Second Sealift LPD
HMNZS Aotearoa
Replacement OPV's
While the SOPV is currently shelved it is still technically on the books and may be taken off the shelf any time.
I would add Manawanui but she has no hangar and is only a deck so can't really deploy with a helo, but her replacement might.
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Post by richard1098 on May 17, 2023 10:19:20 GMT 12
I've heard that the Seasprites might not make it to their out of service date and that there could be a possibly interim solution needed sooner rather than later. This would require something able to operate from the existing OPVs, not some notional future replacement. There are not a lot of choices for suitable maritime helicopters, but these are the contenders as I see them, ranked from smallest to largest: Airbus AS565mbe Panther Leonardo AW159 Wildcat Airbus H160M Guepard Lockheed MH-60S Seahawk The H160M is pretty new and very close in weights and dimensions to the Seasprite. JT In terms of capability, the range of sensors, systems and weapons that have been integrated into the MH-60 series is pretty impressive. It's hard to see how platforms like the Wildcat could replicate that without huge additional cost. |
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Post by machina on May 17, 2023 10:49:45 GMT 12
Government needs to have the stones to commit to proper platforms and capability. How many times must the lesson of cheap up front/expensive & crap in the long term be learnt. Bring forward the OPV replacement to match the helo replacement. Go for the proven Seahawk, and have 4 new Legend-class cutters to land them on ( ) 4 new Type-26 frigates with helos as well. 2 SOPVs. Canterbury replacement. To help make up the shortfall in crews engage in an aggressive headhunting campaign to pull dissatisfied current and former RN, RAN & USN personnel. Provide a good incentive package and pay everyone properly. Use Army tradesmen to rejuvenate/build new defence estate assets. Have a dedicated in-house project management capability to price & run the jobs to save money/risk and be more effective. Then buy another Herc, 3 more P-8s, 4 no. A-400s and 2 no. KC-46. Start with some Hawk T-2s and lots of exchange-based personnel to begin the process of reinstating the ACF. Finally, adapt the Army to a marine type force as island-hopping with the Chinese will be the next big war for us. It’s not hard, we just need strategic vision suited to our environment. That means reach/mobility/power projection over big ocean distances. There, NZDF solved. Almost lunch time. |
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Post by machina on May 17, 2023 11:20:31 GMT 12
Forgot to mention a modest but dedicated hospital ship that basically lives in the pacific and SE Asia. Helps on the soft power front.
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Post by Calum on May 17, 2023 15:01:51 GMT 12
I've heard that the Seasprites might not make it to their out of service date and that there could be a possibly interim solution needed sooner rather than later. This would require something able to operate from the existing OPVs, not some notional future replacement. There are not a lot of choices for suitable maritime helicopters, but these are the contenders as I see them, ranked from smallest to largest: Airbus AS565mbe Panther Leonardo AW159 Wildcat Airbus H160M Guepard Lockheed MH-60S Seahawk The H160M is pretty new and very close in weights and dimensions to the Seasprite. JT The Panther is pretty old based on the ancient Dalphin The H160M will be fielded by the French Military but IIRC not in a naval role I think there are some concerns over the amount of Chinese content (IIRC it was concern when it was bid as the RAF's Puma replacement ) MH-60S hasn't been in production for ages. The Aussies have had to buy more Romeos to replace the MRH 90 when the Serria would have been better, The only sensible one this list is the Wildcat. The Romeo is a fine machine but horrendously expensive to operate (like most helicopters). |
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Post by richard1098 on May 17, 2023 17:11:34 GMT 12
I've heard that the Seasprites might not make it to their out of service date and that there could be a possibly interim solution needed sooner rather than later. This would require something able to operate from the existing OPVs, not some notional future replacement. There are not a lot of choices for suitable maritime helicopters, but these are the contenders as I see them, ranked from smallest to largest: Airbus AS565mbe Panther Leonardo AW159 Wildcat Airbus H160M Guepard Lockheed MH-60S Seahawk The H160M is pretty new and very close in weights and dimensions to the Seasprite. JT The Panther is pretty old based on the ancient Dalphin The H160M will be fielded by the French Military but IIRC not in a naval role I think there are some concerns over the amount of Chinese content (IIRC it was concern when it was bid as the RAF's Puma replacement ) MH-60S hasn't been in production for ages. The Aussies have had to buy more Romeos to replace the MRH 90 when the Serria would have been better, The only sensible one this list is the Wildcat. The Romeo is a fine machine but horrendously expensive to operate (like most helicopters). Why better? With 36 MH-60Rs they have enough airframes to cover all operational needs, along with training aircraft. Yes, in theory additional MH-60Rs were bought as a "replacement" for the no longer wanted MRH90 transport helicopters, but I suspect the Navy had no issues with purchasing a far more capable aircraft. |
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Post by jimtheeagle on May 17, 2023 20:28:22 GMT 12
The Panther is still available, but is the smallest and lightest of the contenders The Wildcat is based on an even older airframe but is probably the most likely choice, even if only in the interim The H160 has been delivered to the French Navy in an interim SAR configuration, with a proper navalised H160M to come (so some published specs are provisional) I couldn't remember what version of the Seahawk was still on offer. Again it's a pretty old basic design One wild card that I had forgotten is the naval version of the HAL Dhruv ALH: www.key.aero/article/indian-navy-commissions-two-new-dhruv-alh-mk-iii-squadronsJT |
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madmark
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 78
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Post by madmark on May 18, 2023 4:23:37 GMT 12
Mark this post, its going to be Wildcat.
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Post by skyhawkdon on May 18, 2023 9:01:13 GMT 12
I hear from good sources we will be leasing some Wildcats before the year is out as the Seasprites apparently can't be safely maintained in service beyond the end of this year (no OEM support).
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