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Post by denysjones on Jun 16, 2008 19:16:27 GMT 12
Well they're still coming up. Just today I had a phone call from a chap wanting to know if I had any knowledge of a chap aged late 40's - early 50's in the Oxford area (or slightly further inland) with a shed of aircraft stuff.
Then the info got vague as to whether this guy had Corsair stuff or his father had been something to do with Corsairs.
Now there may be some possible basis for this as a Corsair was sold off from the E&W school at Wigram and the only info I was able to track on it was that a Mr Shearer of Nth Canty bought it.
Your territory Shorty?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 16, 2008 19:34:55 GMT 12
A Corsair in a barn would be a wonderful find. Good luck with tracking that one down.
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Post by shorty on Jun 16, 2008 20:08:54 GMT 12
I'll do a bit of research on tyhat Dave, now regarding the camera mounts
I don't want to rain on your parade but:
Before I was posted to Te Rapa I had heard all the usual stories about parts from long departed aircraft being lost in the stores system and squirrelled away in some forgotten hidey hole.
When I got there I found it just wasn't like that. The spares were held in uniform sized boxes with the ends painted yellow upon which the part number was painted in black. If the item was too big to fit on the shelf there would be a marker box there to indicate it was in the bulk storage area of the site.
One of the techie’s tasks was to inspect a certain number of items each week to ensure that they had not deteriorated and were adequately packed. If they weren’t we would have them sent to the tech section for the problem to be rectified. The items were all held on racking and it was all very tidy as the CO would inspect a different site each week. There were no locked sheds or mysterious rooms or bunkers.As I said in 2 years I found one box with a Auster wheel hub in it in two years of looking.
If they had of been there where would they have got a FSN number for them? The label if one was attached would have read something like –“Mount, Camera, F 24 MkII” or whatever, it’s unlikely it wouldn’t say “Mount Camera Spitfire PR16”.
Point 2. The Spitfire tag is very suspect. The number of people without any knowledge of RNZAF history who talk about Spitfires in NZ is staggering. An example: we had sismantled Harvard NZ 1050 and had it on trailers and were shifting from Omaka to Christchurch. Everytime we stopped people would ask us if it was a Spitfire!
Point 3 . Why would a Stores Officer order parts for a Spitfire, he would know at the time we didn’t have any on strength at the time he would have ordered them
Point 4 Your source. Did he actually see them and how did he know they were Spitfire? Or was he told they had been found and that they were Spitfire? In my experience of rumours they always originate with a third person or even more removed, typically my uncles neighbour or a friend of a guy I know or similar.
Sorry to sound so negative but after years of chasing I get very suspiscous and something about this doesn’t ring true (like the Lancaster story)Had he said Kittyhawk or Ventura mounts I would have said Wow!
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Post by shorty on Jun 16, 2008 20:27:59 GMT 12
Dave you were right with the Corsair identity and I thought the name Shearer rang a bell, he had the one that went to Ashburton, I have a photo in an old Wings magazine of it sitting in the yard (if my memory serves me right there is traction engine behind it. TYhe corsair was broken up in 1954 It was NZ 5526 / INST 118
Just a thought, if he was a bit out with the location maybe he was talking about my place a few years ago. Wrong aircraft type (nothing suprising there) but age group is close.
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Post by sniff on Jun 16, 2008 21:18:50 GMT 12
Speaking of buried airframes and engines, stories I have heard tell of a number buried near the creek behind the bomb dump at Wigram, bounded by the area of Wigram Road and Awatea Road. I was talking to a number of people in their 60's who lived in the Wigram/Hillmorton area for most of their lives. The sort of people you meet at ANZAC parades and have a conversation with but then never see again. Lost opportunities.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 16, 2008 21:27:37 GMT 12
I have no reason to argue with you, you know Te Rapa much better than I do - my only time there was for my recruitment medical. But the chap who told this story was an Aircraftman Supplier based at Whenuapai who was seconded with some other grocer baggies to Te Rapa to take part in the big count. This was in 1990 so before the base actually closed, but it was the big closedown preparations when they were going through stuff. they were checking every item with a fine toothed comb apparently. He was also a keen warbird fan, like his brother and me, and seemed to know about aircraft. He described how there was stuff there that no-one had ever looked at for years and was in boxes packed with wartime newspapers. I don't know if it was labelled or not but when they found these mounts they checked the serial on them and discovered what they were. Point 3 . Why would a Stores Officer order parts for a Spitfire, he would know at the time we didn’t have any on strength at the time he would have ordered them It's quite possible that the part was used on other British aircraft? There were lots of parts used on several types. Maybe as Spitfires were Vickers they got them for the Vincents or something in the plan of mounting cameras? From what I recall it was he himself that saw the items and as I say the serial numbers on the items were checked to confirm the items as Spitfire parts, as I recall it. That's the whole reason why he was discussing it, he was so amazed at the find and that's why he was discussing it. He was fully aware of the difference between a Spitfire and P-40, etc. So he found it surprising about how odd it was to find these things. That's all I know. Whether it's true or not I cannot say. I doubt he was making it up. From memory he said there were around 50 of the camera mounts. He also listed other out of place items found in the deep storage too but these are the only things I specifically recall. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 16, 2008 21:32:01 GMT 12
Dave you were right with the Corsair identity and I thought the name Shearer rang a bell, he had the one that went to Ashburton, I have a photo in an old Wings magazine of it sitting in the yard (if my memory serves me right there is traction engine behind it. TYhe corsair was broken up in 1954 It was NZ 5526 / INST 118 Just a thought, if he was a bit out with the location maybe he was talking about my place a few years ago. Wrong aircraft type (nothing suprising there) but age group is close. I guess the above was directed at Denys, not me. So what did/do you have in your back yard shorty? |
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Post by 30sqnatc on Jun 16, 2008 21:34:42 GMT 12
I recall talking to an soldier in the 1970s who spent weeks driving a truck emptying out the store houses when the Army took over Mangaroa . It all went to Seaview. I'm not sure if it was to the government stores board for disposal or straight to the scrapers.
Dumping boxes of perfectly servicable equipment may seem strange today but remember that the market was often flooded so it had no sale value or less than than the sale costs. For example the lakes across SH1 from Hopuhopu Camp were used to dump surplus stores as late as the 1960's. I know this is a fact as I have seen some that had been recovered including a brass artillery sight still in its box and complete with screwdriver I have in my garage. Even the wooden handle was in as new condition as it was rapped in oiled paper.
As to the strange finds in storehouses, rather than being incorrectly ordered, many were parts that were delivered under the wrong part number and sat on the shelves incorrectly labelled until the mistake was discovered - if ever. For example, one day in Waiouru, we planned to do a 76mm gun barrel change on an M41 tank in the field which was something that had not been done for years. When the old barrel fired its last allowable round the tank was moved to the side of the firing point and the armours began the removal process. As it was my tank I was tasked with unpacking the new barrel that had just arrived from camp having arrived from Trentham the day before. As soon as the long wooden box was opened I realised the muzzle brake was all wrong. Despite what both the original US description on the box and the more recent NZ labelling stated we quickly determined the 'Cannon, 76mm, tank' was in fact a 'Cannon, 90mm tank'. Naturally we thought the up-gunning was a great idea but it didn't happen. Finding suitable 90mm rounds would have been a problem. That box and its presumably unopened contents, had sat on the shelves being routinely stocktaken for over 20 years.
Paul
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Post by hairy on Jun 16, 2008 21:38:11 GMT 12
My turn (at Daves behest  ). Four or five years ago I was in Mapua, having visited a certain Mr.Smith, to get myself a drink at the local store. At the time I was driving a van with the rather distictive signwriting of the Young Farmer of the Year Competition (Shameless plug time, TV1, July 12 ;D) and this old bloke asked me if I was in the area with the competition, so I told him I was not and that I had been to visit John Smith. He then told me that around about the time when John got his well known Mosquito he saw him putting a second Mossie into a shed on a neighbouring farm. Well I filed this into the back of my head where I put stories that fall into the "implausible, but interesting" file. Where it would have stayed untill a couple of months later I was talking to a well known (and respected - it doesn't always go together) vintage aircraft identity. I told him what I had been told and his reaction was suprising, he told me that when he was a kid living in the Nelson/Richmond area he saw Johns Mossie go past on a truck and was absolutly positive that there was two fuselages. After being told repeatedly over the years "rubbish there is only one" he gave up telling the story, untill that is I told him mine. Aparantly what I told him was the first time in all those years that he had heard anything to support what he had seen. Hmmmmmmmmm ..........And I have been told that the cliffs on the coast near Ashburton have eroded back to a pit that was used to dump stuff from the Ashburton air field including Tiger Moth bits and that you can see at least one fuselage frame sticking out of the cliff.  |
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Post by shorty on Jun 16, 2008 21:39:45 GMT 12
At my previous house, which was beside and visible from, the main road, there was Agcat, Hudsons, Beaver and Anson bits, A4 canopy, Ahrens airliner, and other assorted stuff. re the Te Rapa stuff, I'll keep an open mind (which I do with most rumours). What became of the bits? Re the Mossie, I'll ask John next time I'm up there (he still owes me a favour) Incidently in the mid to late 60s I recall seeing a pair of Mossie drop tanks sitting in a vacant section beside a shop in Avondale (I went to Avondale College). John's after a pair if you know of any around. He'd also like some rocket rails. (i'm right out of those just at present  |
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Post by Bruce on Jun 16, 2008 22:18:07 GMT 12
Not really a rumour as I can confirm it as a fact, I know of a couple of Vampire Drop tanks sitting behind a farm shed not far from Hamilton Airport. I have also flown over the lakes near Hopuhopu (surrounded by 23 Ammunition Magazines - counted as a question in the Black Sands Air Rally 2006!) and I can just imagine the sort of stuff chucked in there as a quick clean up!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 17, 2008 3:56:06 GMT 12
As mentioned before I uinderstand there's a Catalina float in a drain on the farm next to my uncles at Te Rore near Pirongia. It used to be his parent's farm but since sold. As I've mentioned before he had lots of Corsair bits and even a bomb in the graden when i was a kid but he donated it all the Wigram. But the float remains.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 17, 2008 4:16:22 GMT 12
At my previous house, which was beside and visible from, the main road, there was Agcat, Hudsons, Beaver and Anson bits, A4 canopy, Ahrens airliner, and other assorted stuff. Were you living in the RNZAF Museum? ;D From memory they decided to send them to the RAF's BBMF to use as swap items or spares for their PRXIX Spitfires (not that the camera mount would need changng too often). But that was the suggested disposal I heard. Is there actually room to fit tanks and rails? As for the army dumping things in lakes, apparently the Yanks did that too in several parts of NZ when they left after the war, including pushing several jeeps and trucks in! There have been and probably still are expeditions afoot to recover some of them. One of the old boys I have interviewed for my book, who has since passed away, told me he was at Rabaul atthe end of the war. The Allies took the former Japanese base and operated from there for a bit, with the RAAF being in charge and the RNZAF units attached to them. When time came to leave he said everything, and I mean everything, that couldnt be flown home was taken to the end of the runway which had a cliff with several hudred foot drop he said, and pushed off. He was most upset to see masses of brand new tools and machinery biffed over. He was a driver and vehicle mechanic and he said their entire workshop which was on a sled was hiffed over the edge. Plus of course aircraft and parts. He said it was rocks below, not sea. Perhaps there's a trove of treasures there, at least for collectors of 1940's spanners... |
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Post by shorty on Jun 17, 2008 9:35:56 GMT 12
The Mustang tool kits were supposedly buried at Woodbourme in the vicinity of the rifle range.
There was also a scrap compound there and I have some slides I took of it showing it full ov Vampire and Harvard parts.
Also when I was at Tadji in PNG there was a lot of workshop equipment left there and getting swallowed up by the jungle.
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Post by John L on Jun 17, 2008 19:15:58 GMT 12
As for the army dumping things in lakes, apparently the Yanks did that too in several parts of NZ when they left after the war, including pushing several jeeps and trucks in! There have been and probably still are expeditions afoot to recover some of them. One of the old boys I have interviewed for my book, who has since passed away, told me he was at Rabaul atthe end of the war. The Allies took the former Japanese base and operated from there for a bit, with the RAAF being in charge and the RNZAF units attached to them. When time came to leave he said everything, and I mean everything, that couldnt be flown home was taken to the end of the runway which had a cliff with several hudred foot drop he said, and pushed off. He was most upset to see masses of brand new tools and machinery biffed over. He was a driver and vehicle mechanic and he said their entire workshop which was on a sled was hiffed over the edge. Plus of course aircraft and parts. He said it was rocks below, not sea. Perhaps there's a trove of treasures there, at least for collectors of 1940's spanners... Dad told us similar stories - trucks full of gear being run off cliffs, everything was chucked - he was in the Army Service Corps in Bougainville, at the time,I think |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 17, 2008 20:51:40 GMT 12
It's sad when you think how desperate mechanics and farmers were at the end of the war to get parts and tools, and all that stuff was just dumped.
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Post by shorty on Jun 18, 2008 19:51:24 GMT 12
Ok, the Trentham teaser didn't bring too much forward so here is the story. I was visiting the Aviation Heritage Centre at Omaka on Easter Monday 07 and there were these two older guys standing in front of me and viewing one of the cabinets. I overheard their conversation which was a tale about one of tellers acquaintances (notice it is always a third person who saw something) who, while preparing Trentham buildings for the influx of serviceman expected at the start of WW2, had come across, in one of the buildings, (wait for it.....) A Fokker Triplane! It was decided that, as it was a product of those nasty Germans, it was to be broken up there and then and buried so they smashed it up and pushed it into a hole.
See now why I didn't believe the story.
If it had a slight semblance of truth to it, some slight hint or suggestion would have circulated to some degree.
Looking on the possible side.maybe there was confusion with the Christchurch Albatros.
Similar points: both German WW1 aircraft
both involved with Military bases (although only later with the Albatros)
similar sentiments-Albatros-pacifists, Triplane-anti- German
both buried
approx time the same (within a few years)
However, despite the similarities, I don't believe the triplane story UNLESS someone has heard something remotely similar. I think the storyteller had been suffering from over imagination, or feeding his ego.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 18, 2008 21:21:13 GMT 12
Yes I see the reasons now why your craptometer was buzzing. As I was reading the first part of your post I too thought of the Albatross which is documented time and place as being broken up and buried at Harewood. No doubt his mate served at Trentham before the war and at Harewood later... and the two stories merged over time in the teller's mind.
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Post by shorty on Jun 18, 2008 21:24:53 GMT 12
Now for rumour No 6. The chances of an all kiwi crew being able to fly "their" Lancaster half way round the world and then safely ditch it in a lake and then slope off to their homes kinda beggars belief.
Mayb they could get their kit aboard but they would have to make several refueling stops along the way and some officous RAF Officer type somewhere would ask to see their authorisation for the flight. If you could get it this far why pick a lake? plenty of beaches or deserted farmland etc to put it down on and damned sight less chance of drowning! Then you get to discharge paperwork! nah.....sorry, I don't buy this story either.
Something that is true tho is that when I was doing some research in the files of the Hamilton newspaper there was a report in one of the late 40's of a group of Waikato farmers looking at going to the UK and investigating the possibility of using Lancasters for top dressing. Pity that came to nothing as that would have been damned exciting! Much better than watching Cubs and Tigers do it. I reckon maintenance on the merlins would have been a nightmare.
BTW did you know that a couple of our Freighters were equipped for top dressing?
Got a photo somewhere of one dropping a load in trials.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 18, 2008 21:28:32 GMT 12
I just remembered one of the best rumours I ever heard. I was at an airshow at Wanaka in 1993 and saw a guy who had all the NZ Warbirds gear, hat, badges, etc, so looked like a guy who knew what he was talking about. I overheard him telling his mate quite confidently that Tim Wallis had just bought the Motat Lancaster and was going to get it flying. I just about wet myself and had to walk off.
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