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Post by shorty on Dec 5, 2008 16:20:11 GMT 12
I saw the B 24 report in an old article by Robert Montgomery about B 17s in NZ. His information is usually prtty well researched
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 5, 2008 20:46:52 GMT 12
Indeed, Robert is a renowned researcher. I will look out the date of that big bang when i get a chance.
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Post by shorty on Dec 6, 2008 19:44:28 GMT 12
Another story to ponder over (and hopefully solve)
In the Christchurch Star 8 July 1971 there was a report of "a Christchurch man negotiating to buy two dismantled DC 3 aircraft, valued at about $2000 each, to ship to new York where they might fetch as much as $8000 each"
Apparently the aircraft were bought by a North Canterbury farmer "about 10 years ago"
Now the only possibilities, that aren't really accounted for are the ones dismantled for spares by Airwork. viz NZ 3502, 3505, 3506, 3516, 3517, 3519, 3520, 3522, 3523 or 3524.
Presumably the DC 3 woodshed that I posted a photo of is also one from that batch.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 16, 2008 22:53:32 GMT 12
I've located the details of that explosion in Northland.
A notation from the No. 1 (General Reconnaissance) Squadron ORB:
6-2-42 I
NVESTIGATION OF EXPLOSION
One aircraft based at Waipapakauri investigated a report of a loud explosion heard by people from Cape Reinga to Kaitaia. Search negative
My personal opinion is it was possibly a large clap of thunder
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Post by Tonys18 on Jan 22, 2009 14:38:58 GMT 12
I heard a little while back about a plane from WW2 that crashed at or near the hopu hopu military base and the people died from the crash from hitting a fence. So they pushed it into the river. It was some sort of bomber or dive bomber he said.
Anyone know about that one?
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Post by Tonys18 on Jan 22, 2009 14:44:22 GMT 12
I Also heard not to far from where I live that Hamilton airport has stuff buried under the runway. And also near the P.A.C out in the feild there is some crates full of spare parts in the grease ready to go. Now if only you were allowed to dig em up!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 22, 2009 15:26:04 GMT 12
Good to see you on the forum Tony.
The buried aircraft under the runway at Hamilton is a fairly well known story. They were apparently the stripped shells of Venturas bulldozed into the gully as landfill when they extended the runway. I've heard several people talk of this and I think that was about 1964 that it occurred, maybe earlier? I don't know how many aircraft were crushed though. There would certainly be very little left now worth digging up I'd think.
I have never heard of parts in crates buried there though. As most parts in crates would have been at Te Rapa I doubt there would be much if anything buried at Rukuhia is 'new' condition. It would be interesting to know more though.
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Post by nzompilot on Feb 17, 2009 21:02:44 GMT 12
Time to dredge this thread up again and report Ok, the Trentham teaser didn't bring too much forward so here is the story. I was visiting the Aviation Heritage Centre at Omaka on Easter Monday 07 and there were these two older guys standing in front of me and viewing one of the cabinets. I overheard their conversation which was a tale about one of tellers acquaintances (notice it is always a third person who saw something) who, while preparing Trentham buildings for the influx of serviceman expected at the start of WW2, had come across, in one of the buildings, (wait for it.....) A Fokker Triplane! It was decided that, as it was a product of those nasty Germans, it was to be broken up there and then and buried so they smashed it up and pushed it into a hole. See now why I didn't believe the story. If it had a slight semblance of truth to it, some slight hint or suggestion would have circulated to some degree. Looking on the possible side.maybe there was confusion with the Christchurch Albatros. Similar points: both German WW1 aircraft both involved with Military bases (although only later with the Albatros) similar sentiments-Albatros-pacifists, Triplane-anti- German both buried approx time the same (within a few years) However, despite the similarities, I don't believe the triplane story UNLESS someone has heard something remotely similar. I think the storyteller had been suffering from over imagination, or feeding his ego. I saw the B 24 report in an old article by Robert Montgomery about B 17s in NZ. His information is usually prtty well researched Indeed, Robert is a renowned researcher. I will look out the date of that big bang when i get a chance. Shorty - I was talking to Robert today he is the one you overheard at the AHC talking about the Fokker triplane at Trentham - from what he was saying I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the reports - he has seen this thread as well and wasn't too happy about the way it was reported on here, and wondered why you didn't ask him about it at the time, he would've been happy to discuss it with you then if you had interrupted their conversation. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 17, 2009 22:14:39 GMT 12
Apologies to Robert if any comments I made offended. I hope not. Now that I know he was involved that does change things. I'd love to know more now.
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Post by nzompilot on Feb 17, 2009 23:19:25 GMT 12
Now that I know he was involved that does change things. I'd love to know more now. I'll add it to the list of things I'm asking him on your behalf tomorrow then Dave  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 17, 2009 23:54:54 GMT 12
Thanks Craig, that'd be most appreciated.
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monty
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by monty on Feb 19, 2009 20:11:41 GMT 12
I am in all probability the "elderly guy" you overheard talking to my friend at the AHC - I was there that day. What a pity you didn't come up to make yourself known...
My source was the late Jack Carver, whom I came to know well as the Stationery Clerk in the Blenheim Office of Inland Revenue during my time in Dept of Lands & Survey.
As a boy, in the 1930s Jack lived at the rear of Trentham Military Camp; across the road was a row of huts dating from the First World War - he and his friends frequently played in and around them.
They contained an assortment of German uniforms, first-aid kits, gas-masks and "tin-lids" - complete with screw-on spike.
On of the huts contained the Triplane. My conversation with Jack went something like this:
Me: How many wings did it have, Jack?
Jack: Three, and it had two machine-guns in front of the cockpit.
Me: What colour was it?.
Jack: It was a streaky green all over the top and sides, and a pale blue underneath - and the pale blue came about an inch up the sides. Jack was not particularly interested in aircraft but was describing accurately the production colour-scheme of the Fokker Dr.I)
Me: Any markings on it, Jack?
Jack: It had black crosses on its wings and sides, and on the tail. The crosses were on a white backing.
Me: What happened to it?
Jack: Around the outbreak of War they took the little plane and a lot of the other German things and put them in a shallow hole where they were enlarging a building (he thought the YMCA), them crawled over it all with a bulldozer.
Several others who served at Trentham knew of "a plane they had there at one stage" though only Jack could actually describe it in detail.
Remember, the Triplane was never on the Air Force inventory. This smacks of innocent little Daschunds being kicked to death in the First World War but the anti-German sentiments that resulted in the destruction of the Triplane and the Albatrosare at Trentham and the Albatros at Harewood are understandable, if not entirely forgiveable!
At the beginning of this section Shorty (how are you mate?) mentioned C-47s being broken up; two or three of the RNZAF's earliest "Daks" were broken up at WB - I remember seeing the fuselages at an early post-war Air Pageant - at least one was still in very faded Olive Drab (more of a faded khaki); I remember thinking they looked a bit like sections of railway carriage.
A number of Hudsons were sold from WB and several were cut up nearby; others went to local farms, some maybe further afield.
A lot of equipment was bried at WB at the end of the War, including cases of tools, still in waterproof wrapping, and some radio equipment (though a lot of that went to the Canterbury University School of engineering) - wouldn't know about "crates of aero engines" and think that unlikely. Parts of written-off aircraft are known to have been buried on the southern side of the airfield, but they are "fact" and some exploration has already been carried out.
That one about "one hundred Army Indian motor-cycles buried at the Delta" refuses to lie down and die. The Army wouldn't have had more than a dozen motor-cycles (of any kind) in Marlborough during the War - same for the Air Force - and the only things we know of buried (or dumped) at Delta were dozens of cups - minus handles! Oh and some drums of fat from one of the messes.
Finally, there's the SBD (Slow But Deadly) Dauntless I recall seeing at WB around 1948; no gentlemen, it wasn't a Harvard! How many Harvards have 3-blad propellers and rows of holes along the trailing edge of the main-planes? It was a chalky siver all over, with NAC-style red trim around the engine cowl.
Oh, and as for that Lanc - two visited during the War (Queenie and Aires), and you know how the facts grow to fit the story...
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 19, 2009 23:15:29 GMT 12
Welcome to the forum Monty. Thanks for filling in the details on these stories. I find it quite fascinating about the Trentham stories, and the fact that you state an Albatross was also broken up at Trentham additionally to the one known to have been broken up at Harewood.
I had only ever heard of the Christchurch Albatross being brought to NZ as a WWI souviner before this thread, but thinking about it I know that loads of large German howitzers and spandau machine guns, etc were brought back (many became trophies at RSA's and memorial parks, some still are, and some were impressed back into service in WWII to defend NZ with)so see no reason why more than one aircraft wasn't freighted over. To think a genuine Fokker Triplane may have been here till the war is amazing, and sad. Someone out there must have taken a photo of this aircraft, or have memories.
As mentioned earlier in this thread in the 1936-37 period as the RNZAF expanded the recruit courses were done at Trentham and I've had the priviliegde to talk with a couple of those pre-war entry chaps. They've told me there were certainly wings, tails, engines and other aircraft parts sent to Trentham from Wigram for them to train with, but none have ever mentioned complete aircraft being there. You'd think of a whole aeroplane was there, they'd have been learning on it.
An alternate thought, just throwing it out there, I wonder if the Triplane was some sort of mock-up for perhaps a target or maybe even a parade float or something, which looked real enough to a young kid for next-door?
I suppose if the Army has no records of the items brought back from the war, then maybe shipping manifestos might reveal something, but that would be a huge search over a 20 year period with loads of ships to look up.
I know a chap who was in the Territorials pre-war but sadly I don't think he went down to Trentham till 1940. He did lots of exercises round Hamilton, and down at the old Army firing grounds at Atiamuri, and he was also on the first ever exercise at the new Army camp at Waiouru which took over from the Atiamuri firing grounds as the main firing range. I'll try to remember to ask him if he recalls any aeroplanes at Trentham. He's 96 but has a mind like a 20 year old, and still goes to the gym three times a week!
I'm very intrigued to hear about the seemingly civil marked Dauntless. Or I wonder if it was perhaps one of those unusual RNZAF schemes like the bare metal P-40's used by squadron commanders.
Amazing stuff, and I'm really pleased you've joined the forum.
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monty
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by monty on Feb 20, 2009 9:29:27 GMT 12
Good Morning Team,
Thank-you Dave for your kind remarks. Sorry about the Albatros mix-up; that's what comes of typing late at night and "not quite" correcting a type-O! Of course the Albatros was displayed for many years in an outdoors shelter behind the Canterbury Museum and released for a War Bonds display in Cathedral Square. Dr Roger Duff (also known as the"Maori Grave-Robber") indicated he didn't want it back - the sme for the Bf 109E at the end of the War. The Albatros was destroyed at Harewood, the Bf 109E lingered at Wigram for a short time but the rest, as they say, is history. We are very fortunate to have he Zeke in the Auckalnd War Memorial Museum - ane what a credit it is to the restorer's art, considering the material they had to work with!
I recall the SBD at WB had roundels (pre-war A-Type I think, and very faded), it also had letters/numbers on the rear fuselage - maybe an INST No.? I don't think it had a flin-flash. Truth to tell, I was more impressed by the large black bomb on the tarmac beneath the aircraft.
Jack Carver believed the Dr.I was the "real deal", its cockpit was fitted out, which they would hardly have done for a 1:1 replica. Who knows? The Albatros was displayed at a number of venues in the early years after the First World War, but it seems the "Tripe" was not. As you say, a lot of ex-German equipment was brought here after the 'Great War" and many towns had a field gun on display. We did, here in Blenheim; they were released for smelting down in aid of the War Effort during the Second World War - however they were'nt actually disposed of until that conflict had ended.
Cheers for now, from a very wet Blenheim.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 20, 2009 11:09:09 GMT 12
Ah, if the Dauntless was an INST airframe then the paint was possibly applied by aircraft finishers under training, and was not a genuine scheme of any type, just some masking and painting practice. Therefore possibly INST91 (Dauntless NZ5008), or INST92 (Dauntless NZ5018) or INST110 (Dauntless NZ5016). If we can find out if any of these three were sent to Woodbourne that will probably solve the mystery.
Yes, we had a large WWI German gun - of the type seen at airshows these days such as Omaka 2007 - in Jubilee Park, Cambridge next to our Cenotaph. In 1942 it was removed due to the fear of it being spotted by Jap bombers, as it is in the centre of town and right next to the Town Hall they considered the risk too great. I did some research a few years back to find out what became of it. Some locals have said it was taken up to the rubbish dump on the corner or Taylor and Vogel Streets and buried. Others said it was buried on the corner of Victoria Square and others said it was buried where it stood on Jubilee Park. Then another chap told the local museum staff he recalled vividly seeing it loaded onto the back of a flatbed railway carriage and being taken out of town.
A group tried to locate it in the dump last November using a ground penetrating radar. They apparently dug all day and found nothing, despite being at the "exact site" that a credible "witness" said it had been buried at. I was not present and had nothing to do with it, but heard it was a bit of a farce. Personally I think the theory is went out of town on a train is most likely as many of them went to Wellington where they were employed as shore defences apparently. And as you say others were melted down. Only one photo exists of the Cambridge Gun and it's not a great photo. It has been replaced in its place at Jubilee Park now by a 6 Pounder.
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Post by smithy on Sept 20, 2010 13:32:02 GMT 12
I know I am resurrecting this oldish thread but I was wondering whether anything more/new has come up about the supposed Dr.I which was at Trentham? I was gobsmacked reading Monty's recounting of his mate Jack's description and especially the colour scheme.
As Dave later mentions, someone else must be able to add to this surely. Be absolutely amazing if any photos exist.
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Post by curtiss on Sept 20, 2010 19:21:34 GMT 12
There is mention of C47's being scrapped at Woodbourne. This data plate is all that remains of one of them: NZ3522 C47A-3-DK 43-48114. Delivered 11 Sep 1944 Served with 40 Sqn Broken up at WB May 1948 I picked it up earlier this year along with a few small Mossie and Dak bits.  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Sept 25, 2010 16:49:04 GMT 12
Curtiss, which area of Woodbourne did you find that dataplate, out of interest?
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Post by dakman on Sept 25, 2010 20:55:33 GMT 12
Thanks for your post Curtis
would also be interested in your source
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Post by thomarse on Sept 26, 2010 10:06:18 GMT 12
Just to help push this thread along a bit, here's two snippets that aren't rumour; however, I don't know all the details. They are from my formative years, and I'd be very interested to know if the a/c involved simply rotted away or were snapped up by someone. Apologies in advance if these subjects have been done to death in the past.
1. Oxfords near Marton:
In the late 60s I went to stay a weekend with a friend in Marton. Knowing my interest, he took me to see an Oxford or Oxfords at the property of a Mr Galpin at Tutaenui - as an aside, I think that was the property where the Agwagon COP and "Doc" Sait met their fate. Although we only looked from the road, one a/c was sitting on its main undercarriage and appeared complete except for outer wings.
2. Hudsons/Venturas (?) at Morven near Waimate:
According to the blue-covered diary, on 17 Feb 1968 (42 years - seems like yesterday) a mate and I flew Wellington - Waimate return in Victa CLF. We were both hour-building at the time, and the reason for Waimate on that occasion was that a former schoolmate worked on a farm at Morven. This propery was owned by a Mr Gluyas, and under a belt of pine trees was a big collection of a/c remains which I believe was either Hudson or Ventura. He had bought them a long time previously mainly for the undercarriage for farm trailers but I don't think he had in fact used it.
Mr Gluyas is no longer in the phone book at that address, and a couple of years ago I did a "drive-by" to see if I could recognise the farm, but couldn't. Station Road or similar comes to mind.
Can anyone fill me in on the subsequent life of these?
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