Harvard question

[Dave Homewood]

I have been told that the Mk II variants of the Harvard that the RNZAF owned had their cockpits set up like British fighters, with the throttle on the left like the Spitfire, Hurricane, etc.

And the Mk III Harvards were acquired because the RNZAF began to get US fighters (P-40's and Corsairs) so they were set up the other way round with throttles on the right like the US set-up.

After the war Harvards continued to be used when we had British aircraft (Mosquitoes, Vampires, etc) in service. So were only the Mk II's with the British layout used then, and the maybe the Mk III's issued to the P-51D Mustang squadrons?

Or was less emphasis made on keeping the cockpit layout standardised with the type they would prgress to?

I know the Mk II fleet postwar would be used for a while, then go in for maintenance and storage while the Mk III's came out of storage and into service, and they rotated round like that for a number of decades. but was that because the operational types were also changng and they were matching the Harvards to US or UK types?

[yak2]

You may want to check this out more Dave. My knowledge is limited as I have only flown 2 Havards, one of which was ex RNZAF. Both had throttles in the standard location on left side of the cockpit. From what I have seen of P40's and P51's they were/are also configured this way.

[Damon]

The French had some aircraft with the throttle operating the opposite way. Increase power ,throttle goes backwards. To close throttle ,push forward. All RNZAF Harvards operated in the normal way ,with throttle quadrant on the left hand side.However I will bow to someone more infinite knowlage if proven otherwise!!

[Dave Homewood]

I personally don't know if what I was told was accurate but it was aviation luminary John Smith who told me that and as he has one of each type in his shed I'd think he was right. I'm happy to be corrected though.

[Bruce]

Going by the mechanics of how the Harvard throttles were set up I would be very surprised if there was a difference (It would be a pig of a job to get the throttle mechanism to fit on the right...) All the machines I've seen (including some early mark II bits) had LH throttles. Not saying that there wasnt a few variations, but that certainly isnt the difference between a mark II (and variants) and a Mark III. The main difference was the electrical system and instrumentation.

[Dave Homewood]

I may be mistaken about the LHS and RHS thing. It may be as Damon says, the throttles were backwards in some but still on the left. i may have misunderstood John.

I recall him saying the Mk II's were british with their instruments and cockpit layout and the Mk III's like US instrumentation and layout though

[Citabria]

Having just flown a MKIII the throllte is on the left and works in the standard way.

Cheers

Andrew

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks Andrew.

Perhaps he was waffling then.

[yak2]

The Pilot's Notes (AP 1691D) I have are for a Havard 2B, which was the Canadian built aircraft for the RAF. It shows British pattern instruments and the stick is the ring grip style that includes PTT and gun camera switches. Throttle, mixture and propellor controls are all on left. When I get a mo, will scan and post some pics.

[Citabria]

The Mixture on the other hand IS backwards, with Lean being forward!

[Bruce]

Eventually the mark II variants were standardised as IIA* models which were essentially the same as a mark III. early II variants had 12 V electrical systems, pommy instrument layouts and spade grips etc, but like all long serving aircraft they received a number of upgrades throughout thier life.
You flying Heavy metal trainers now Andrew?

[harvard1041]

Hi Guys

Think there might be a bit of confusion here...RNZAF MKII, MKIIA, and MKIII are just RAF names for USAAC AT-6A, AT-6C, and AT-6D aircraft resepectively. All the aircraft were essentially the same - SNJ - Harvard - AT-6 ...coming down the NAA (Inglewood or Dallas Line) - just delivered to different Customers. In our case, they had a NAA number, a USAAC number, then a RAF number - and finally an RNZAF number. The RNZAF aircraft were delivered to the British Air Commision - but allocated to the RNZAF.

The MKII was essentially a pre-war NAA Part Number 66 - aircraft - backlit instrument panels, early style instruments - a few more Customer Mods...maybe back-to-front mixture controls for the Brits (but not the Kiwi ones). I think the stroy about RH mounted throttle quadrants and back-to-front controls is a rehash of the story about French Spec P-36s & P-40Bs.

Here's a photo of a MKII - NZ963at Ashburton.


The MKIIA aircraft were an AT-6C. In the case of NZ1041 NAA (North American Aviation) 88-13190 on the NAA Data Plate, USAAC 41-33717 (ie a year 1941 Contracted aircraft), RAF EX744 - on a small brass plate on the Instrument Panel...and then final after allocated to the RNZAF NZ1041. Photo here of the front panel for 1041 (see the little brass RAF plate ? )


Here's a couple of shots of the NZ1044 - also a MKIIA aircraft - showing its Delivery Logs from the NAA Dallas plant - accepted by the Brits - then passed thru to us.



The MKIII aircraft were std NAA AT-6D aircraft.

The MKIIA* and MKIII* designation were RNZAF post war designations for the (at the time) 'Big Mod' done mid 1950s...when they tried to standardise the aircraft - 24V being one example. The MKII aircraft never made it back into service when flying started post war as far as I know...and were disposed of.

Having said this most of the Harvards are 'Paddys Axe' machines with forward fuselage, rear fuse, wings and hori & vertical stabs from several aircraft - some even have the Data Plate of another aircraft (just a plate rivetted on after all).

The Canadians also built the Harvard under licence - CCF - Canadian Car & Foundry aircraft were MKII, IIB and (post war) MKIV aircraft...but they different to the 'std' NAA aircraft.

Bit of a ramble - but hope it is of interest.

Rgds
HVD1041

[harvard1041]

Hi again

Kinda like Harvards - here are couple of photos.

NZ1037 at Ohakea - 1962.



NZ1037 at WB - 1975


and NZ1041 at WG - 1961



Lots of great RNZAF photos of Harvards out there - some great ones recently from the Barry Read and also Shorty Mines thread... must be others...

Rgds
Hvd1041

[corsair67]

NZ1061 taken at Temora in Febuary -

[harvard1041]

Hey this is fun....

NZ1034 - OH - 1978



NZ1076



NZ1078



Rgds
Hvd1041

[harvard1041]

Couple more - then gotta go.

NZ1056 (0ne of the FAC aircraft) - WG - 1973



NZ1009 - WB -1974 - believe this is still an 'RNZAF Spare' at OH.




NZ909 - 1973 WB (Scrapped in 1974)


NZ946 - Jan 76


Hvds & 727 - WB -1984



...anyone have any war time RNZAF Harvard shots ?

Rgds
Hvd1041

[hairy]

You asked for it.................................
(mainly 1946 - 1950)

NZ903 (INST107) at Hobsonville


NZ954 (INST149)


NZ1010 in good company


NZ1012 (now at Ashburton)


NZ1013


NZ1014


More later.

[Dave Homewood]

Awesome photos!

I don't recall ever seeing a photo before with two Hastings together like that in colour before. The photo of the dayglo paint ware is also really interesting to see.

The colour schemes on NZ1013 and NZ1014 are also of interest. The latter seems to be an OTU machine in a similar scheme to that which ZK-WAR used to wear. Where is that hangar with the Catalina in? Is that the RNZAF musuem's one or is this a 1950's/60's photo? If so, is it Hobsonville?

[Dave Homewood]

Oh, and, another Harvard slide! The Methven one!

[Damon]

Some amazing pictures! harvard1041.. have you been holding out on us here!

In an old NZ wings magazine around here is a picture of Harvard 44 in OTU colours with F codes, after a ground loop at OH. Might go well with this thread.
Does anyone else have pictures of the remaining harvards that the RNZAF still has in storage?