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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2011 22:34:19 GMT 12
Oh, I hadn't looked at the cost yet haha. But the A400 is more capable. But hey, I guess we will soon ( a couple of years) find out what they have chosen.
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Post by meo4 on Dec 17, 2011 21:51:59 GMT 12
NZDF has had it's share of technical issues with equipment purchases over the past years the best way to prevent that is to purchase proven technology such as the c130J there by reduce the risk IE getting something that is reliable the A400M apart from we cant afford them and though they look good on paper they are not proven (most of those YouTube clips above are CGI clips) so even in the unlikely event that they were purchased the Tax payer would wear the risk (see Ozzie seasprites issues) taking more out of the limited NZDF budget. Purchasing a mixture of C130J and HC130J (LRS)long range maritime patrol aircraft would be the best option ,well within budget and solve the problem replacing both Orions and existing Hercs . The HC130J basically C130J with a belly mounted surface search radar EL /M 2022A and FLIR starfire 3, counter measures and other mission systems.
Let's face it we are a maritime nation 12 nm of EEZ by 2030 the current rate of consumptions will require two earths to keep up with demands on resources that means more foreign fish boats in our waters.
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Post by meo4 on Dec 17, 2011 21:57:45 GMT 12
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Post by Barnsey on Dec 18, 2011 14:59:09 GMT 12
Meo4, Your argument for the HC-130J to replace the P-3 doesn't make sense from the RNZAF's view point, as these would mean the loss of fixed wing maritime offensive capability. The HC-130J is used by the US Coast Guard as a maritime search and rescue platform and doesn't carry weapons.
I would hope that the RNZAF is aggressively pushing for the P-8 Posiedon and possibly the UAV based Broad Area Maritime Surveillance (BAMS) system. But knowing only too well the regard defense spending is held by NZ's politicians, a decision will be a long long time coming.
The C-130H replacement also needs to funded now...... I'd think the C-130J is the front runner.
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Post by Barnsey on Dec 18, 2011 15:20:24 GMT 12
The Defence White Paper 2010 has the approximate timeframe for when the procurement decisions will be made:
Strategic Lift
The NZDF will have a small but adequate airlift capability once the C-130 upgrade is complete. It has only one sealift ship (HMNZS Canterbury), which is being progressively modified to improve its operational effectiveness.
The current upgrade programme for the five C-130H Hercules aircraft will continue, maintaining the NZDF's independent airlift capability. The aircraft will be replaced at end of life (around 2020) with an equivalent - or better - capability. Decisions on the appropriate replacement will be informed by a study to be concluded before the next Defence Review in 2015.
Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (including maritime patrol)
Non-defence maritime patrol requirements cannot currently be met by the NZDF. Capabilities have been enhanced by the introduction of the Offshore and Inshore Patrol Vessels, but the lack of an effective wide-area surveillance network hinders efficiency, and the asset mix is unbalanced.
A satellite imagery capability will be introduced to provide sustained and longer-range surveillance, and to ensure that maritime patrol assets are more effectively targeted on areas of interest.
The current upgrade of the six P-3 Orions will continue. The aircraft may then progressively be fitted with self-protection and anti-submarine sensors, improving their combat capability and enhancing the ability of New Zealand to contribute more robustly to global efforts. The P-3 Orions will be replaced with an equivalent level of capability, manned or unmanned, in about 2025. Studies closer to this date will determine the types of replacement platform.
A number of low-end regional surveillance tasks (for both defence and other agencies) could be performed more cost-effectively by using maritime patrol aircraft with short takeoff and landing and sufficient range. The introduction of this capability would increase our surveillance capacity in both the EEZ and the South Pacific.
To maximise its cost-effectiveness, this new aircraft would also be expected to perform a transport and multi-engine flying training and consolidation function, as currently provided by the B200 King Air. An indicative business case is being prepared, with the intention of acquiring this new capability as soon as practicable.
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Post by baronbeeza on Dec 18, 2011 16:17:23 GMT 12
'''''''' A number of low-end regional surveillance tasks (for both defence and other agencies) could be performed more cost-effectively by using maritime patrol aircraft with short takeoff and landing and sufficient range. The introduction of this capability would increase our surveillance capacity in both the EEZ and the South Pacific.
To maximise its cost-effectiveness, this new aircraft would also be expected to perform a transport and multi-engine flying training and consolidation function, as currently provided by the B200 King Air. An indicative business case is being prepared, with the intention of acquiring this new capability as soon as practicable. '''''' I was involved with the Aussie maritime patrol aircraft, okay it was 15 years ago but they are still using the Dash 8 (Q300). Nothing wrong with them..... almost back to where we were with the F27 all those years ago. The aeromodellers and youngsters here want something more photogenic ..... and military looking though. They may even have a direct line to the beehive and Treasury to get the job done for them. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2011 19:18:57 GMT 12
I can't see how an aircraft such as the B200 or Dash-8 with sensor's and what have you, will have the same capability a P-3k2 orion... But hey our politician's, who technically control our military decision's through funding, know better than all of us...
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Post by baronbeeza on Dec 18, 2011 20:54:20 GMT 12
I can't see how an aircraft such as the B200 or Dash-8 with sensor's and what have you, will have the same capability a P-3k2 orion... But hey our politician's, who technically control our military decision's through funding, know better than all of us... Ummm, the Govt controls the military... Fullstop. The Chief of Defence staff is responsible to the Minister of Defence. www.defence.govt.nz/I have been involved with the RNZAF F-27 and the Aussies Dash 8 and Dornier patrol aircraft. We also used to use BN-2B Islanders and F406 for surveillance. What Barnsey wrote was about the overall picture, from satellite to inshore.
'''''' To maximise its cost-effectiveness, this new aircraft would also be expected to perform a transport and multi-engine flying training and consolidation function, as currently provided by the B200 King Air. '''''
''''' with the intention of acquiring this new capability as soon as practicable ''''' I am not so sure the P-3 would even get a look in. I can tell you now the 328 will be in the same category... and it is bristling with 'sensor's and what have you.' www.defenseindustrydaily.com/a-10-bn-coastwatch-contract-finalized-new-aircraft-ordered-01684/The RNZAF F-27 were well liked for their versatility but their capability was poor when compared to the aircraft currently available. The present CAS did a lot of flying in them and the search radar was a downward pointed weather radar, - can you believe. |
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Post by luke6745 on Dec 18, 2011 21:09:44 GMT 12
I'd go for a mixture of B350s and CN-235s.
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Post by Naki on Dec 18, 2011 21:15:08 GMT 12
These are two different requirements ..one is a light MP/SAR aircraft and Multi Engine trainer (King Air 300/ Q300 etc)...the P-3s will be replaced (hopefully) by something bigger and more capable (P-8).
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Post by luke6745 on Dec 18, 2011 21:25:59 GMT 12
I meant for them to supplement the P-3 and its successor.
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Post by baronbeeza on Dec 18, 2011 21:50:08 GMT 12
These are two different requirements ..one is a light MP/SAR aircraft and Multi Engine trainer (King Air 300/ Q300 etc)...the P-3s will be replaced (hopefully) by something bigger and more capable (P-8). ''''''' The P-3 Orions will be replaced with an equivalent level of capability, manned or unmanned, in about 2025. ''''' One they are talking about procurring asap, - the other will be after even RNZAFfan will have finished his time in the mob. |
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Post by Naki on Dec 18, 2011 22:13:58 GMT 12
I meant for them to supplement the P-3 and its successor. Sorry I was referring to the post above yours. |
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Post by baronbeeza on Dec 18, 2011 22:42:27 GMT 12
I could see you were on the right track Paul... it was a couple of others there that I thought may have been drifting off on a tangent.
I can't see the P-3 being replaced for a good many years and who knows what the requirement or capability will be by then. We may not even be a sovereign state by then.
This thread was actually about the transport fleet replacement.
I think it is pretty obvious though that the Govt thinking is to try and choose a multi-role aircraft.
Back in the day of the F-27 the Andover was still in service also. The advantage of the F-27 to the RNZAF was that they had the use of the Air NZ sim for pilot training. Much of the flying was Nav Training but they also did SAR tasks as well as the routine Fisheries protection tasking.
On top of that they had provision for a dozen or so passengers.
I see the fisheries protection and Pacific Island work being prominent in the tasking of the new aircraft. They will need range and comfort. I read light transport as Comms transport.
10 to 15 seats is plenty for politicians and RNZAF task and still give the range required.
The aircraft don't need STOL ability as such but be able to get in and out of typical Pacific airfields without Water/Meth etc. An APU with aircond would be included and all these are a major step-up from what the Air Force had not so long ago.
The RNZAF F-27 had long enough legs, and they got about the place. I know of at least two trips to Perth.
The 100 Series had a pretty poor 'hot and high' performance though. It would not have done well in the Pacific.
I see the Q300 as heaps more capable and fitting the bill.
They will certainly not be following the path of Pearl up in Darwin, they bought the orphan Dornier 328 for the Aerorescue contract. possibly a capable aircraft in a way but it has brought home the risks of trying to operate something out of the ordinary.
Spares support and maintaining engineering expertise are a nightmare for them.
The lesson there is to operate something nice and common if you possibly can.
You can't get much more common in this region than a Dash 8 / Q300.
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Post by ngatimozart on Dec 18, 2011 22:57:13 GMT 12
The govt has said NZDF has to save $350 - $400 million annually for 10 years so theoretically they will have between $3.5 billion and $4.0 billion in the kitty by the 2020/2021 financial year. The govt has agreed that this money will be ring fenced. The rumour is that the B350 has the inside running for the 200nm EEZ MP / twin training role. The transport mix will not be decided until 2015 in the 2015 DWP. That has already been stated in the latest Capability Plan issued in May 2011. In 2020 the RNZAF is looking at replacing its Hercs like for like or better. In 2025 the P3K2s are up for replacement. In the same time frame the Navy is looking at 2015 - 2020 ANZAC Frigate Systems Upgrade completed. IIRC Endeavour replaced. 2020 -2035 IPVs, OPVs, ANZACs and both Sealift (Canterbury & Endeavour replacement) replaced. IMHO the ANZACs will be the first platforms that the Navy will want to replace because they will be the oldest vessels in the fleet. This will be around the time of the tail end of the Herc replacement and when the Orions need to be replaced. And I don't know what the army will be looking at in that time frame. So when you look at it $3.5 - $4.0 Billion in 2020 in the kitty isn't going to stretch very far, especially when the govt is determined not to increase Vote: Defence more than rate of inflation nor give Defence a capital injection. Then again it is 8 years away and lots can change in that time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2011 23:20:20 GMT 12
"the other will be after even RNZAFfan will have finished his time in the mob."  good, but what is the "Other"? just need clarification. |
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Post by baronbeeza on Dec 19, 2011 0:09:58 GMT 12
The P-3 replacement. Did someone say 13 years from now.
I am not sure of the average length of service (for personnel) these days, I would guess it would be about 10 years.
Interesting that the B350 is a serious contender. I appreciate the capital expenses and operating costs are cheaper but it is not going to be a comfortable machine for extended ops.
Strangely enough I went from working on the Dornier 328 to the RAAF B350 in the space of a few months. Two very different types with the Dash 8 falling nicely in between the two.
I would not be happy crewing a King Air for long periods over the ogin. You need a decent walkabout, a galley and a toilet.
How do the crews feel about the idea ?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 19, 2011 0:49:41 GMT 12
"The govt has said NZDF has to save $350 - $400 million annually for 10 years so theoretically they will have between $3.5 billion and $4.0 billion in the kitty by the 2020/2021 financial year. "
I don't think their idea of 'saving' means putting it into a bank account, it means simply not spending it as there isn't the money to spend. Am I right or wrong here?
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Post by meo4 on Dec 19, 2011 13:59:47 GMT 12
Just on the HC130 J the surface search radar utilised is a variant of the same EL 2202 on the upgraded P3K2 so there's no real loss in surface picture.
As far as weapon systems go HARVEST HAWK (Hercules airborne weapons kit) /ISR utilised by USMC KC130J's .
This consists of a AA/AQS 33 Targeting system with a mounted FLIR on the fuel tank can deliver wing mounted AGM114 Hellfire ,precision guided bombs.
The fire control console for the operator is mounted on a cargo pallet in the cargo compartment.The entire system can be removed in a day and costs 22 Million per kit.
The P8A per unit cost 280M US so a squadron your looking at over a billion NZ.
It would be hard politically to push through a Aircraft that costs the same as the entire NZDF operating budget whose primarily a ASW Asuw aircraft.
Like Barron Bezza stated I think the Air Force will hold on to the Orions bit longer.
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Post by meo4 on Dec 19, 2011 21:27:29 GMT 12
Attached Hellfire on C130J Attachments:
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good, but what is the "Other"? just need clarification.
